[dragon] Why choose Tamori?
bowman_rob at hotmail.com
Fri Sep 6 15:26:29 EDT 2002
>From: "Ben Moss" <ben at strangecompany.org>
>I think they're being perfectly clear for the information they had=20
>at the time of their conversation. Life was so much easier when Yokuni =
>in charge. You may also wish to be a little more respectful in your
>responses. I went out of my way to try to explain why that decision was
>reached for the benefit of the people on the list and I could very easil=
>take your above comments personally :)
About the tone, you are right. I apologize... <bow>. I still find it=20
amazing that you can prompty respond to Zembu-san challenge or my rudenes=
but miss the special bulliten from our Clan Champion. Your thoughts?
Now lets go thru your assumptions from your first justification. Your fi=
post contained this as part of your last paragraph...
>As to the argument that Satsu or Hoshi, etc would not make the decision =
>side with Tamori. They are dragon and are the ones most likely to look =
>the bigger picture and the long term effects of such a choice. In many=20
>I would say they are the most likely to choose to side with Tamori. Can=
>not see Hitomi telling Kagetora to seek an alliance with Tamori, the one
>agasha to stay loyal to her, because I certainly can.
Can you not see many
>of the Tamori staying loyal to their original daimyo because I can. Can=
>see Hoshi saying that he has seen the future and the only way the dragon=
>survive is by siding with the dark oracle.
We all now of course know that in fact Hoshi pointed to the Drak Oracle a=
our greatest threat, and that Satsu saw an alliance with the Phoenix as t=
solution. I am pointing this out again because you should have known thi=
as it was posted to this list prior to UK GenCon :(. Even if you didn't=20
know it, I am wondering how you feel to be so wrong about your assumption=
I can guess the answer because your second email defending your assumptio=
and justification have steered clear of Hoshi and Satsu ;). Now instead =
have changed tacts and your justification focuses on the alliances=20
appearance, Tamori being justified in attacking us, and "power". Have I=20
Assuming I am close, lets deal with them in order, you say this about=20
>Remember wether we are actually allied with the shadowlands/Tamori or
>whatever is (fairly) irrelevant, the only thing that matters is the
>perception of our alliance. This point is purely in reference to the
>reaction of other clans, I am quite aware that in other contexts it very
>much matters wether or not it is true.
It is my belief that the "perception" issue is already covered if we simp=
consider the choice as presented...
"1) Ignore the threat of the phoenix and drive the dark oracle from our
2) Ally with the dark oracle and turn our combined might against the
This would be a military alliance as written, no? It would be my=20
perspective that Tamori's abilities and powers might be noticed (you know=
earthquakes, volcanoes, that type of stuff :)), so I would not think it=20
possible to keep this secret. Is it just my perspective, or would making=
military alliance with a corrupted being to attack another Clan possibliy=
seem , oh... , maybe just slightly, *bad* :(?
As for Tamori you say this...
> > You do not need to counter a weapon if it is not used against you ...
> > anymore.;)
>That is just as true of Tamori. All we need to do in either case is mak=
>sure that the weapon is not pointed at us (or anybody else except Daigot=
In "Imprisoned" the L5R fiction at the AEG page Tamori admits he blew up =
lands for this reason...
=93Oh yes, little ones. Even as I struggled with the power trying to cons=
me, I could sense the alliance between the Lion and Phoenix, one conceive=
to battle the Horde. I could not allow such a thing, for in my weakened=20
condition I might have proven vulnerable.'
So clearly this weapon has already been used against us, neh? We are now=
just worried about the "anymore" part, right? Well Tamori also admits th=
he used this weapon against us to help the Horde. The Phoenix fought us=20
because of blind pride and ignorance, Tamori fought us to help the horde =
Of course your choice atomatically points a weapon at someone, and that i=
something you just said shouldn't happen, right? Unless of course it is=20
Daigotsu, but aside from your assumption I see no evidence to support cla=
that Tamori will help us take down someone he clearly supports. The only=
current evidence shows Tamori supporting the Horde, do you have anything=20
You follow with this response to Barry...
> > That is the crux of this discussion. In the options, you essentially=
> > death or fighting chance with less death while I essentially saw no
> > corruption/potential peace with Phoenix(and Crane at this point I mig=
> > or corruption/guaranteed continuation of the phoenix war.
>Yep, I think that summarises the situation pretty well.
As an aside, I am bothered that what is right never enters your mind here=
In not so many words you are saying this is the easier decision as death =
kinda tough to take. This is interesting, because in your original email=
you said this...
"I think he made the right decision. It was not an easy decision to make=
but to my mind that is part of what being a dragon is about."
Seems as if perspective is shifting to paint a better picture to me. you=
Of course you back this assumption because you talked to Justin and you=20
>We'd done the research on the day. The phoenix were choosing power all =
You have frequently mentioned the Phoenix choosing power as leaving us no=
choice. I am sorry but the phoenix choice was power, not power against t=
Dragon. Anything else you take is merely your assumptions. Which of cou=
you try to back up with your conversation with Justin.
Well once again, I call your assumptions into question. You see the anot=
part of SotD, which was discussed prior to UK GenCon, here and at posted =
27 Aug to DragonStrategy.net (a place you post to, so I assume you know o=
it's existence ;)), was...
"Should the dragon seek Aikune and ILW's help in defeating Agasha Tamori?=
So it would seem war with Phoenix was not preordained. In fact going bac=
to your all important point of "perceptions" (and remember this is an=20
important point according to you :)), I would say all "perceptions" would=
have been our our side should we have chosen purity at UK GenCon and wisd=
More information about the Dragon