[dragon] diamond personality wishlist from l5r-ccg
dburke at primogen.com
Mon Feb 24 17:52:44 EST 2003
I'd like to point out that from a military deck standpoint, the only one of
that entire list I really make use of (sorry I'm not fishing through to
figure out who is what Soul Of right this moment :) ) Hogai is it.
4/3 for 6 gold (0 ph means he never ever comes out full) is a bargain. The
fact that he is - HR makes him that much tastier. Right I run pretty much
with entirely - honor, with Rosanjin having the highest HR req in my at 3.
In looking forward to Diamond, I like Kansuke, and am resigning myself to
the fact that the days of lots of - HR people are coming to a close. Even
the scorpion are getting lots more people with 0 (or more) HR.
Going to go out on a limb here and say that dishonor won't be winning games
but will become a much more dangerous tactic to employ, both for and
My chief concern is gold scheming for NON Dueling decks. Trade Grounds is
great...if you have a fate deck stacked full of three and four focus cards.
Which I don't. Right now I rely almost entirely on 2/2, gold mines and
jadeworks. it WORKS because everything I have costs 7 gold, with the
exceptions of Esai (going away in Diamond anyway) and Chuichi. I'm hoping
there is a little shifting in the gold scheme or a more useful military
ancestor or two brought out. I may just start packing Third Whisker Warrens
as most decks I see are what I would consider Event heavy with a minimum of
three and five or six not being unusual.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Moss" <ben at strangecompany.org>
To: <dragon at michonline.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: [dragon] diamond personality wishlist from l5r-ccg
> Here's a proposed personality list for diamond from over on l5r-ccg. It's
> in no way official but I'd be interested in what the people on this list
> think of the various choices put forward originally and my modified
> (heavily) list. This way we can hopefully get some sort of consensus on
> balance of what we'd like to see. Of the list of 10 personalities I've
> tried going for mostly tattooed monks and duellists with a bit of card
> manipulation thrown in as well. I've also tried to fit in as much
> interaction with the elemental rings as possible to keep up the
> enlightenment theme.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Bird" <chdb at bombshelter.ca>
> To: <l5r-ccg at alderac.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:28 PM
> Subject: [L5R-CCG] A proposed list for Diamond, part 1
> > DRAGON
> > Shiro Mirumoto
> > Shiro Tamori
> Personally I'd rather see Tamori go as thematically it sits very badly
> me. Generally it encourages blitz decks, something which seems very odd
> dragon and is a theme that is being toned down (rightly IMO) for diamond.
> Also, I don't think SM is the power stronghold people seem to think it is
> when they first look at it, mostly due to the overly diverse personality
> base for dragon. I'd much rather see a variant of one of the old
> brotherhood strongholds or something else that is ring/enlightenment
> > Hitomi Echiko
> 3/3 for 8gc with a questionable ability. 3chi duellists are not a good
> > Hitomi Hogai
> 4/3 for 8gc with an advantage (useful defensively) and a disadvantage
> limits him offensively (and you only see him in offensive decks because of
> his 0ph)
> > Hoshi Takeji
> Is this serious? You'll see a riot if this guy makes it to diamond.
> > Kitsuki Remata
> 1/4 for 7gc and 3ph. Would get him into most decks until you look at his
> of 10. For dragon gaining that initial 5 honour is not easy. Compare him
> to Kakita Yariga (not considered overpowerful) and I know which of the two
> I'd be running. The double chi against dishonoured personalities is weak
> general and going to be weaker in diamond.
> > Mirumoto Daisuke
> I'd rather not see any cavalry for dragon in the base set. We don't have
> cavalry in the mountains for a reason.
> > Mirumoto Shiryu
> 3/4 for 9gc with 3ph and a pointless ability. I'm not totally sure what
> role you're expecting him to fill but if he were in I seriously doubt he
> would ever see play (except by Paul of course).
> > Tamori Hiroko
> Fits the emerging theme of card manipulation in the dragon. For gold I
> think she's over costed (unable to use mystic dojos efficiently in dragon
> due to a lack of cost effective shugenja) but would probably see use in a
> slower diamond environment.
> > Soul of Agasha Nabe
> My general impression of the current view of dragon players is that they
> pro-tattooed monks and mirumoto duellists (the kitsuki have a small but
> dedicated following as well). It's hard enough as it is trying to build a
> deck from monks, samurai, shugenja and tattooed freaks as it is. Of the
> options available shugenja are the most likely to go. With this in mind
> shugenja that make it in should be able to do something in and of their
> right. With a ph of 1 and no ability worthy of mention he'd be unlikely to
> ever see play.
> > Soul of Togashi Jodome
> Very good suggestion. I believe he was on the pre-gold list but just
> to make it at the last minute. He's a monk (but also a shugenja and so
> promotes some synergy with the diversity of traits on our personalities)
> with an ability that interacts with the elemental rings.
> > Soul of Kitsuki Kaagi
> A reasonable choice but I think there is a better option for our Kitsuki
> slot (just the one as they are a small family)
> Looking at the lists for some of the other clans I notice several
> personalities that currently see play, including at least one (Sayuri) who
> should never have made gold (-/7/4 with a built in ability!) but on this
> list you may see Hiroko, depending on deck (people seem to like her in
> combination with Shiro Tamori but doesn't fit with any of the strong ST
> archetypes) and that's it beyond the souls
> > Dragon is likewise difficult to balance in Diamond simply because
> > there's such a sharp parity between the crappy guys nobody plays like
> > Mirumoto Taiu and the insanely good ones like Tamori Chieko and Mirumoto
> > Tsuge. This actually was the case pregold as well, with most of the
> > original group of Hitomi being amazing value for money whereas lots of
> > Mirumoto were horrid.
> I'm don't think I agree that Tsuge and Chieko are in the insanely good
> category either. They are both good certainly but far from overpowering.
> At 5gc Chieko is on a par with Taeruko and Misao but has a higher hr
> (comparably it's 3pts below starting honour) and is very much early
> shamebait (honourable dragon are more dishonour susceptible than lion).
> ability is weaker than Taeruko (substantially) but better than Misao's
> gold at least). Without mystic dojos she's less honour efficient than
> either of the other two I've mentioned so I'd probably put her on a par
> Misao. Good but not obscene. Tsuge costs 8 for a 2/4 samurai with 3ph.
> That's comparable to Jotaro (who never sees much play) but he's a staple
> dragon honour because it needs 4 chi personalities and he has 3ph. His
> ability is very useful for duelling but in the current environment
> is very weak. Again not overly strong in my opinion.
> It could be said that both of these personalities are better than I'm
> out because they can attach dragon tattooes (making Tsuge 5/7) and this
> currently be true but overlooks several issues. Firstly you need the
> tattoo in hand. Dragon tattoo has a cost in that you need to hope (pray!)
> that nothing bows them or else they're out for the count. Dragon tattoo
> not be in diamond. Tattooes may not be in diamond. Remember we're
> at personalities here not a hypothetical personality with tattoo x
> > I'm keeping Shiro Mirumoto in, but before you raise a stink, take a look
> > at my suggested peep base - only three peeps in my proposed Diamond set
> > have 4 Chi, and in Fall the only one with 4 Chi was Togashi Kansuke. I
> > don't think the SH's power is overblown when you counter it with a lack
> > cheap 4-Chi peeps.
> Yes it is a useful ability but it does require bowing someone and not a
> (read cheap low stat) personality at that. Compare this to the other
> strongholds you've got listed and you'll see it is by no means game
> breaking. When this stronghold first came out I know a large number of
> players suddenly started playing dragon (as in you'd see 10 dragon at a 40
> player tournament) but after two tournaments you were back to the ones
> played dragon at the beginning as they realised the dragon gold
> scheme/personality base made the bowing for a card substantially more
> difficult than it first appeared (you generally don't use it until 5 turns
> into the game at the earliest)
> > Dragon decks tend to go between dueling honor and tattoo attack, and I
> > wanted to reflect that, but make a bit of a switch aspect to it.
> Switch, GRRRRRRR.......
> I'll state this now, I don't think switch is viable for dragon. Let's
> at what constitutes a switch deck for a start. To my mind there are two
> distinct types, one of which works and one of which most definitely
> but somehow the "fashionable" name of switch has been applied to both.
> first type refered to from here on as a Development Control (or
> involves an early military attack (taking two provinces) followed by
> back on a heavy production advantage to win by honour. This deck is
> typified by the lion and unicorn who are both very good at taking those
> early provinces but find it difficult to carry through the military
> advantage into the late game (lion tacticians with the limited fate hand
> unicorn with the slightly decreased non-Moto force). This style of deck
> does work if you can create an honourable deck that can blitz the early
> provinces. Dragon can't do an honourable blitz because our personalities
> are (rightly) not the honourable military of the lion. Corrupt tattooed
> blitz, yes. Although lion are considered to have the weakest gold scheme
> I'd actually give that dubious honour to the dragon (though it is a fairly
> close run thing). Combine slow gold with expensive personalities (if you
> want honourable ones who have no force anyway). Overall not viable for
> This brings us to the second type of "switch" deck, the Losers deck. This
> is the style of deck that sets out to be an honour deck but can't do it as
> uickly as the phoenix or crane and so attempts to add some military
> to take provinces from the other honour runners. Of course these other
> honour decks are designed to deal with the might of the lion and the
> A few honourable wannabes aren't going to get very far militarily.
> also a military variant of this deck which meets with a similar degree of
> success. The only way this style of deck can win is if it's opponent
> a serious mistake (unlikely at a major tournament) and so does not win so
> much as it's opponent makes a big enough mistake to lose. Hence the name.
> Scott Hadsall wrote an article about keeping your opponent in a box as a
> metaphor for controlling a game and going on to win it. With this deck
> simply climb into the box yourself and have to hope someone lets you out
> before you even consider putting anyone else in it.
> Anyway that's enough of that, here's my list (though I think the scope may
> still be a bit too broad it depends what direction design want dragon to
> Mirumoto Tsuge - without dragon tattooes, etc he's a good honourable
> duellist but still a bit pricey (gold) at 8 for a 2/4
> Mirumoto Zenko - another duelling mirumoto who gets an advantage for using
> items (fits niten style)
> Tamori Hiroko - mentioned above
> Togashi Matsuo - story relevant and interesting mechanic. Should probably
> be a monk though.
> Soul of Suana - monk with elemental ring interaction.
> Soul of Hoshi Maseru - would almost certainly need his cost increased to 6
> Soul of Hitomi Dajan - another tattooed non-unique monk that has an
> elemental ring related ability (may need to have his force reduced by 1)
> Soul of Hitomi Tashima (xp) - keys off of the tattooed trait itself and
> makes dragon more likely to use tattooed followers than veteran samurai.
> Soul of Togashi Jodome - already said why
> Soul of Kitsuki Yasu - high hr and ph with useful but still thematic
> ability. Unlike Kaagi doesn't have an inappropriate trait (tactician)
> You'll notice a much larger number of monks than previously and a lot of
> interaction with elemental rings. I apologise for the large number of
> of"s and a couple of ex-brotherhood but it was the best way I could find
> getting the correct feel across. Some of them will need minor tweaks such
> as an increase on the gold cost or 1pt force reduction but I think most
> dragon would be far happier with this list than the previous one. I know
> lot of dragon would like a soul of Gennai (even with an increased cost) or
> soul of Togashi Yoshi (again probably with a cost increase). A soul of
> Gennai with a reduced force (1 or 0 even) and a 1 or two point cost
> would probably keep most of them happy (although a 0/3 Gennai for 8 might
> need an extra point of chi). Not sure who I'd replace for either of them
> though. Given the more substantial stat changes necessary it may be
> to hold off on either of these until the pace of the environment can be
> better judged and an appropriate costing applied.
> Hitomi Touken
> Dragon Clan Mule
> Dragon mailing list
> Dragon at michonline.com
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