From kenneth.wright at mirant.com Thu Jul 1 00:22:19 2004 From: kenneth.wright at mirant.com (Wright, Kenneth) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 00:22:19 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? Message-ID: <2D321821BDADF341AFEA6ECB1EA2DBFE072505@ATLEXMS02.na.mirant.net> -----Original Message----- From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com]On Behalf Of Doji Hajime Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 7:41 PM To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: Re: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? Wright, Kenneth wrote: >And lets not forget that SLH cannot play political actions, which is huge, all of this more than balances out the inability to lose honour, especially since we cannot cause unconditional honour loss on our opponent either. > > >well i don't know a Unconditional honour that isn't a political so maybe >it a little misleading to list those as different 'unfair things'. Furture cards may change this. So it's not at all unfair or misleading to list them as seperate drawbacks since they are listed seperately in our restictions. >Shadowlands can Use Iaijutsu Challenge which works very well for them >since used with Private Dojo Shadowlands has a clear advantage. Just like Crane and Lion have the advantage of using cards like Kenshinzen, Strength of Purity, Let Your Spirit Guide You, etc... and before you point out the personal honor requirements for some of those, remember that Private Dojo does nothing for duelers that don't have the fear effect. In fact, most of the recent best SLH decks have gone away from SLH Duelling to Chi-kill as our Duelling is very iffy, especially when compared to the purer dueling clans like Crane and Dragon. If Iaj Challange was irrefusable, I'd be tempted to agree with you, but without political actions (like shame) our ability to deal with dishonored personalities with any degree of consistancy is a major flaw with SLH Duelling. It has reached the point where most Horde players have joked that Temple of the Ninths ability should be errated to "Bow to dishonor target personality if your opponent is smart." Private Dojo gives an advantage, but it's a very limited advantage. Shadowlands is also immune to number of actions that many people are packing for other clans. Also Shadowlands has the limited advantage that most people are going to pack Meta for other clans rather than Shadowlands anyway because they are more likely to find use for it. Where are you located? I need to move to your area, because if I see one more deck packing 3 Twisted Forests, 3 Force of Will's, and a Purity I'm going to start ripping hair out. I see theese cards in our local tourneys almost as often as I saw Strat-X (pre-errata) >Let >us face it the are a number of decks out there that auto loss to a >Shadowlands deck. Not anymore, even Scorpion Dishonor has enough tools to get past us. There are NO auto loss decks out there, and if you really believe that, then it's obvious you never play as SLH because we need to take every decktype seriously now. >Any political deck is pretty much toast against a >Shadowlands. Bull... I have seen many scorp political decks tear some damn good SLH decks apart played by some fine players post-HC. Your statement was true... right up until 2 months ago. That all changed with Hidden City political actions can screw SLH and we can't retaliate in kind. >Look I will agree that Shadowlands shouldn't be affected by >outmanuvered in Court when Shadowlands can't issue Iaijutsu Challenges. And what kind of Duels are we going to get in response to taking that one away? If your going to take that away ya got to leave us with some kind of out of battle dueling ability, or is that supposed to be reserved for Crane alone? Why cant we issue challenges to duels? This suggestion has me more than a little baffled. Especially when were refering to a duel that can be refused. How about this... I can't speak for all the SLH players, but I think we'd all agree to stop using Iaj Challenge if you let us use Battlefield of Shallow Graves (how a terrain is political is something I'm still trying to figure out) _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From gim at lsh.org Thu Jul 1 01:04:17 2004 From: gim at lsh.org (Bob Galley) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 00:04:17 -0500 Subject: [L5R-CCG] The legions, storyline results, etc. In-Reply-To: <40E377EB.30305@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200407010502.i6152jQ1022297@ms-smtp-01-eri0.texas.rr.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com On Behalf Of Geoff Spady > Subject: [L5R-CCG] The legions, storyline results, etc. > > I am about to express some views that will no doubt make me > unpopular with a few people. > > Even if I didn't think some of the chosen characters weren't > very good, there would still be people who I think would, and > should join the legions. Matsu Tsuko willingly gave her life > for the betterment of her clan, and her empire. Aramoro > understood loyalty, honor, and duty better than any other > character since, imho. How can you have Iuchi Karasu without > Kuni Yori? I'm sure that if everyone who was interested sent > AEG a list of names they felt deserved to be added (and no > doubt some already have) there would easily be a hundred, and > almost every one of them would be deserving. > > I am sure that AEG doesn't want to alienate anyone, and may > not, in fact, even agree with my first assertion in the post, > that not all the choices were very good. However, I am > pretty sure that what they are aiming at is the above > paragraph. There are characters who deserve to be in this > legion, storyline wise. With each passing kotei where they > are not selected, it becomes less and less likely that they will be. > Therefore I am glad to see that AEG is going to add some > characters. If they don't add the characters I want, I will > still be sad, naturally, but I will be glad they are > thinking about it, and that they want to make a good story for us. > Actually, I'd like to hope that the next 20 days goes a step further. A lot of personalities in the Legions /have had their stories told./ We know Yakamo and Hitomi inside out, as well as each of the Thunders, Shoju, Yoritomo and the like. My thought, when I first saw the storyline prizes, was, "Ohh, we get to pick people we don't know that much about, and get more story time for them." In essence, a lot of the Legion of the Dead have had their Great Destinies unfold. I'd like to see some of the second or third tier characters get some ink, something more than a paragraph in the Clan War Manuals, a quick character write-up in Way of the (Clan), or even solely relegated to flavor text on their own card. But, don't worry Geoff, you're not alone. Nokutso no Shiryo Unicorn Clan Ancestor _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From otaku_rotsuken at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 1 03:18:57 2004 From: otaku_rotsuken at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Piotr=20Kapis?=) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:18:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] The legions, storyline results, etc. In-Reply-To: <40E377EB.30305@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040701071857.24206.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Geoff Spady wrote: > I am sure that AEG doesn't want to alienate anyone, and may not, in > fact, even agree with my first assertion in the post, that not all the > choices were very good. However, I am pretty sure that what they are > aiming at is the above paragraph. There are characters who deserve to > be in this legion, storyline wise. With each passing kotei where they > are not selected, it becomes less and less likely that they will be. > Therefore I am glad to see that AEG is going to add some characters. > If they don't add the characters I want, I will still be sad, naturally, I have nothing against some more characters added to the legions. There certainly are personalities, who should be at the very front of those legions, yet they have never been chosen. What I am really sad about is that AEG has already dismissed some of those heroes. I am talking mainly about Horiuchi Shoan, and I know that I have already complained about it. But just when I was beginning to accept this choice (she was mentioned to be alive at the end of the gold) Ryosei was made legal choice. Ryosei, who not only was clearly alive at the end of the gold (while Shoan was considered to be dead by many people), but also had quite some storyline time for herself. She was very active. And now I feel cheated. I don't have anything against Ryosei. It's dismissing Shoan, who was "less alive" then her, which makes me angry. > - Geoff Spady Otaku Rotsuken Considering joining the kolat. --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From of_the_dragon_clan_ at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 03:48:22 2004 From: of_the_dragon_clan_ at hotmail.com (The Dragon) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 07:48:22 -0000 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Happy whatever References: Message-ID: I am here to wish everyone a Happy Canada Day and a Happy Indapendce Day! Don't drink and drive please! _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From tkbrick at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 05:56:57 2004 From: tkbrick at yahoo.com (Thomas Kirchgesner) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 02:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Legion of the Dead / Legion of Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701095657.8954.qmail@web10912.mail.yahoo.com> As long as the additions aren't available to the winner at Gen-Con to pick, it doesn't bother me so much. If they were, I would probably throw a fit(assuredly to no avail, but either way, it would be thrown) be well adios tom k conceded first place at a Kotei after winning game 1 of the match, just to guarantee the storyline pick. --- Kristy Mack wrote: > > The list posted earlier today was of the choices > made based on the > results of the Kotei winners over the past Kotei > season, with the > exception of the results from Thailand, which I'm > still waiting on. > > As a special bonus to this, Rich and I put our heads > together this afternoon. > > Every weekday for the next 20 weekdays, new > members of the Legion > of Dead or Legion of Blood will be announced. > > There is no specific order to this posting, but we > will start with one today. > > Rich will also be writing a bio for each of these > personalities, and > they will be posted shortly after each of their > names are announced. > > So, in light of this past weekend, I find it quite > fitting to > announce a member of the Legion of Blood. > > The newest member of the Legion of Blood is: > > > Yogo Junzo > > > > Just as clarification, this is not meant to take > anything away from > anyone who has won a Kotei this year, this is just > to indicate that > while you've all been out recruiting, so have the > personalities > you've recruited. > > I hope you are all as excited about what unfolds > leading up to and at > GenCon Indy as I am. > > -- > Kristy Mack > AEG Fan Club Coordinator > kmack at alderac.com > "I've got goggles." - Abbey, the profound six year > old > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From jkkotz at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 06:51:10 2004 From: jkkotz at yahoo.com (James Kotz) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Legion of the Dead / Legion of Blood In-Reply-To: <20040701000217.87259.qmail@web41806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040701105110.31395.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> The Sun, the Moon, and a handful of Fortunes vs.. who? Even Fu Leng can't stand up to that. It's the same reason I never cared about Fu Leng's invasion at the end of Gold. Battle battle battle, Yakamo waves his hand and the tainty guys pop. Any rules about not interfering in Rokugan don't apply when the laundry man shows up at your front door. Whoever the Story Team adds in will just be more meat to get chewed up & spit out by the God Squad that the Kotei winners nominated. If the LoB puts up any real resistance it will make even more of a joke of the whole event. Next time, there needs to be some version of a "no power players" rule, as the SL doesn't have a counter for Yakamo, Hitomi, and the Fortunes. They have 1 Kami. Done. Yeah, he's a six pack of buttkick, but he's not enough. Does the whole thing feel like a Day of the Seven Thunders meets Mortal Combat to anyone else? Choose your champions to fight for control of the mortal realm... Robert Van Natter wrote: Except for the fact that it was announced some time ago that the Legions would be filled out after the Koteis were done so that it wasn't too lopsided. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From malkadon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 08:31:20 2004 From: malkadon at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?S=E9bastien_Michaux?=) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:31:20 -0000 Subject: [L5R-CCG] The Legions as of 6/30/04 In-Reply-To: <1a3.26394057.2e144319@aol.com> Message-ID: --- In L5R-CCG-Archive at yahoogroups.com, Kirbdog53 at a... wrote: > > << Yakamo no Oni > Hida Kisada > Hida Sukune > Hida Kuroda > Hida O-Ushi > Kuni Utagu > Hida Yakamo>>> > > > Looks like a big family reunion coming up. I wonder if Sukune is > still going to get dissed by the rest? > > Moto Gahrie It just shows life in Yomi must be boring, seeing Crabs take the first opportunity to get out and play. Tsuruchi Nakata Mantis Clan Storyteller RicePaper Pirate _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From lyversj at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 1 09:26:23 2004 From: lyversj at bellsouth.net (James Lyvers) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:26:23 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets Message-ID: <01C45F4D.7A63D520.lyversj@bellsouth.net> So are you saying the Kaede's Fan would fire off all three? Or are you saying that Kaede's Fan only works with Honor gains inherent to the action or duel itself. It seems to me that if they are seperate Keade's Fan would effect all three, as they are honor gained for winning a duel (Keade's Fan Card Text). And I'm still not convinced A New Guardian would trigger Keade's Fan. What qualifies as a personality performing an action? A New Guardian doesn't even target the peeps that are involved in the honor gain. Akodo James -----Original Message----- From: Bob Galley [SMTP:gim at lsh.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 8:45 PM To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets Comments below Nokutso no Shiryo Unicorn Clan Ancestor > -----Original Message----- > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com On Behalf Of Kevin Schafer > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets > > Actually the Blades of Penance fire first. I can believe this rationale (that the blades fire first.) James, I submit that the blades are separate honor gains by their syntax -- or more importantly, Kaede's Fan's syntax. The Fan "increases by 1" the honor gain from actions performed, duels won, and forces crushed. Thus, the Fan is not a separate gain. It would seem to me that the default then is, that each printed gain for a particular trigger is a separate gain. > Resolve the effects one at a time. > > 1. One of your Courtier Personalities issues an unrefusable > challenge to a non-Courtier Personality. > > When strike is called, a winner is determined. It is at this > point that the Blades of Penance give their honor gains. > > 1a. Blade of Penance (1) gives a 4 honor gain which will > instead rehonor the samurai. > > 1a(1)New Guardian reacts to the rehonoring of the samurai > giving you (4+2) 6 honor. Note: the +2 honor is a separate effect! Therefore, it is a gain from an action, that the Fan can react .. Er.. Trait to. :) > 1b Blade of Penance (2) gives a 4 honor gain > > 2. The winner's controller gains Honor equal to the loser's > Personal Honor. > > Words Cut Like Steel gives a 2 honor gain > > 2a Kaede's fan increases the gain to 3. > > Total gain 6+4+3=13 > > In my opinion the only honor created by a duel is the honor > gain given by Words Cut Like Steel. > > Kevin Schafer > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com On Behalf Of James Lyvers > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets > > > > Are you sure about how the totals are arrived at? I thought the > > traits would kick in before any reactions could be played. > A la Seppukku. > > For again a total of 14/13. > > > > That is nitpicky, I know, but it seems to me all three of those fall > > under the reward for winning a duel, no those effects are not part of > > the duel, but by card text they are rewards for winning a duel, the > > real question is are they seperate honor gains because they come from > > seperate cards responding to the same trigger "winning a duel" or are > > they all lumped together. I would play it as if they were lumped > > together, but I'm usually wrong, for what that is worth. _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kschafer at nazarenefoundation.org Thu Jul 1 09:37:31 2004 From: kschafer at nazarenefoundation.org (Kevin Schafer) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:37:31 -0500 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets In-Reply-To: <01C45F4D.7A63D520.lyversj@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20040701133646.BC482403F5@omta18.mta.everyone.net> Personally, I think it only works on Honor gains inherent to the action or duel. Kevin Schafer > -----Original Message----- > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com] On > Behalf Of James Lyvers > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:26 AM > To: 'gim at lsh.org'; 'L5r-ccg at alderac.com' > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets > > So are you saying the Kaede's Fan would fire off all three? Or are you > saying that Kaede's Fan only works with Honor gains inherent to the action > or duel itself. It seems to me that if they are seperate Keade's Fan > would > effect all three, as they are honor gained for winning a duel (Keade's Fan > Card Text). And I'm still not convinced A New Guardian would trigger > Keade's Fan. What qualifies as a personality performing an action? A New > Guardian doesn't even target the peeps that are involved in the honor > gain. > > Akodo James > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Galley [SMTP:gim at lsh.org] > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 8:45 PM > To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets > > Comments below > > Nokutso no Shiryo > Unicorn Clan Ancestor > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com On Behalf Of Kevin Schafer > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets > > > > Actually the Blades of Penance fire first. > > I can believe this rationale (that the blades fire first.) James, I > submit > that the blades are separate honor gains by their syntax -- or more > importantly, Kaede's Fan's syntax. The Fan "increases by 1" the honor gain > from actions performed, duels won, and forces crushed. Thus, the Fan is > not > a separate gain. It would seem to me that the default then is, that each > printed gain for a particular trigger is a separate gain. > > > Resolve the effects one at a time. > > > > 1. One of your Courtier Personalities issues an unrefusable > > challenge to a non-Courtier Personality. > > > > When strike is called, a winner is determined. It is at this > > point that the Blades of Penance give their honor gains. > > > > 1a. Blade of Penance (1) gives a 4 honor gain which will > > instead rehonor the samurai. > > > > 1a(1)New Guardian reacts to the rehonoring of the samurai > > giving you (4+2) 6 honor. > > Note: the +2 honor is a separate effect! Therefore, it is a gain from an > action, that the Fan can react .. Er.. Trait to. :) > > > 1b Blade of Penance (2) gives a 4 honor gain > > > > 2. The winner's controller gains Honor equal to the loser's > > Personal Honor. > > > > Words Cut Like Steel gives a 2 honor gain > > > > 2a Kaede's fan increases the gain to 3. > > > > Total gain 6+4+3=13 > > > > In my opinion the only honor created by a duel is the honor > > gain given by Words Cut Like Steel. > > > > Kevin Schafer > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com On Behalf Of James Lyvers > > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets > > > > > > Are you sure about how the totals are arrived at? I thought the > > > traits would kick in before any reactions could be played. > > A la Seppukku. > > > For again a total of 14/13. > > > > > > That is nitpicky, I know, but it seems to me all three of those fall > > > under the reward for winning a duel, no those effects are not part of > > > the duel, but by card text they are rewards for winning a duel, the > > > real question is are they seperate honor gains because they come from > > > seperate cards responding to the same trigger "winning a duel" or are > > > they all lumped together. I would play it as if they were lumped > > > together, but I'm usually wrong, for what that is worth. > > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From cloak72 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 09:54:34 2004 From: cloak72 at yahoo.com (Robert Van Natter) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets In-Reply-To: <20040701133646.BC482403F5@omta18.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: <20040701135434.69769.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> >From the archives(email ;) ) [Rules] Honor Gains > >Kaede's Fan + Blade of Penance - does KF increase the > >honor gain from BoP? No, for the same reason. The gain is not coming from "actions this Personality performs" or "duels this Personality wins". -- Jeff Alexander Lead Designer, L5R CCG Alderac Entertainment Group --- Kevin Schafer wrote: > Personally, I think it only works on Honor gains > inherent to the action or > duel. > > Kevin Schafer > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com > [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com] On > > Behalf Of James Lyvers > > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:26 AM > > To: 'gim at lsh.org'; 'L5r-ccg at alderac.com' > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double > Blade of Secrets > > > > So are you saying the Kaede's Fan would fire off > all three? Or are you > > saying that Kaede's Fan only works with Honor > gains inherent to the action > > or duel itself. It seems to me that if they are > seperate Keade's Fan > > would > > effect all three, as they are honor gained for > winning a duel (Keade's Fan > > Card Text). And I'm still not convinced A New > Guardian would trigger > > Keade's Fan. What qualifies as a personality > performing an action? A New > > Guardian doesn't even target the peeps that are > involved in the honor > > gain. > > > > Akodo James > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bob Galley [SMTP:gim at lsh.org] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 8:45 PM > > To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double > Blade of Secrets > > > > Comments below > > > > Nokutso no Shiryo > > Unicorn Clan Ancestor > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com On Behalf Of > Kevin Schafer > > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and > double Blade of Secrets > > > > > > Actually the Blades of Penance fire first. > > > > I can believe this rationale (that the blades fire > first.) James, I > > submit > > that the blades are separate honor gains by their > syntax -- or more > > importantly, Kaede's Fan's syntax. The Fan > "increases by 1" the honor gain > > from actions performed, duels won, and forces > crushed. Thus, the Fan is > > not > > a separate gain. It would seem to me that the > default then is, that each > > printed gain for a particular trigger is a > separate gain. > > > > > Resolve the effects one at a time. > > > > > > 1. One of your Courtier Personalities issues an > unrefusable > > > challenge to a non-Courtier Personality. > > > > > > When strike is called, a winner is determined. > It is at this > > > point that the Blades of Penance give their > honor gains. > > > > > > 1a. Blade of Penance (1) gives a 4 honor gain > which will > > > instead rehonor the samurai. > > > > > > 1a(1)New Guardian reacts to the rehonoring of > the samurai > > > giving you (4+2) 6 honor. > > > > Note: the +2 honor is a separate effect! > Therefore, it is a gain from an > > action, that the Fan can react .. Er.. Trait to. > :) > > > > > 1b Blade of Penance (2) gives a 4 honor gain > > > > > > 2. The winner's controller gains Honor equal to > the loser's > > > Personal Honor. > > > > > > Words Cut Like Steel gives a 2 honor gain > > > > > > 2a Kaede's fan increases the gain to 3. > > > > > > Total gain 6+4+3=13 > > > > > > In my opinion the only honor created by a duel > is the honor > > > gain given by Words Cut Like Steel. > > > > > > Kevin Schafer > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com On Behalf Of > James Lyvers > > > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and > double Blade of Secrets > > > > > > > > Are you sure about how the totals are arrived > at? I thought the > > > > traits would kick in before any reactions > could be played. > > > A la Seppukku. > > > > For again a total of 14/13. > > > > > > > > That is nitpicky, I know, but it seems to me > all three of those fall > > > > under the reward for winning a duel, no those > effects are not part of > > > > the duel, but by card text they are rewards > for winning a duel, the > > > > real question is are they seperate honor gains > because they come from > > > > seperate cards responding to the same trigger > "winning a duel" or are > > > > they all lumped together. I would play it as > if they were lumped > > > > together, but I'm usually wrong, for what that > is worth. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > L5r-ccg mailing list > > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > > > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > L5r-ccg mailing list > > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > > > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > ===== Hiruma Ayslyn Crab Clan Professional Medler Scout Samurai Hero "We are all just Samurai brother, but when we stand together, we are the Crab" "Pain shared is pain divided; joy shared is joy multiplied" Everything I needed to know, I learned from drinking at Callahan's __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From lyversj at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 1 09:50:46 2004 From: lyversj at bellsouth.net (James Lyvers) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:50:46 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? Message-ID: <01C45F50.E1FB9440.lyversj@bellsouth.net> There are 120 personalities that do not have the shadowlands trait and do have a - honor requirement. And many of those have decent stats. I never said SLH was the most powerful, but you are making it out like they don't have any power at all because of one card that an opponent might never get the chance to play. By your own words it is not affecting the environment so what is the BFD? If it isn't affecting the environment that probably means that it's not going off very often or not to great effect, which was exactly the crux of my argument. If it gets to the point where they can cast it and that equals game over, then they either got lucky, or you misplayed. And if they design their deck around getting it out, all that means is they are fodder for all the decks out their that aren't shadowlands, so the chance of Pot7 getting any serious play time is nill, there are just too many better cards. Not to mention the best defense against it (Ryoshun's Last Words), is generally a good card to play anyway, because it stops so many other things. Akodo James -----Original Message----- From: Wright, Kenneth [SMTP:kenneth.wright at mirant.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 8:49 PM To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? That looks like several 5+ peeps to me especially when you consider that of the 74 shugenja, quite a few of them never see play, but the bug ones almost always do in decks that play the shuggies. And they don't "Need" the 5+ to pull it off, a couple 4 chi and a big item, or 3 4 chi shuggies and a small item, purity is still rediculously easy to pull off, especially when you consider that you can freely bow every shugenja you have to do it and not need to worry about your opponent having ANYTHING the least bit threatening on the table for the next 3 or so turns. So the argument holds a whole ocean full of water. As for having that many cards hit, if your opponent is playing Scorp control, you can easily have that much on the field and not be able to attack (having 4-5 personalities bowed each turn makes attacking somewhat difficult), especially if he's waiting for you to drop your last few big personalities to drop the spell on you. Not to mention that manytimes you get into those mexican standoffs where both armies start building up and each one is waiting for some kind of edge to pop out. The raw number of games that nearly go to time in the Koteis can easily attest to that. If you lose more than a few cards you screwed up? If your opponent drops purity your going to lose more than a few holdings, let alone SL regions, personalities, and any cards attached to them. You say not being able to lose by honor is much bigger than not being able to win by honor, two things, one, the inability to gain honor affects more than just winning by honor, it affects the ability to get a vast majority of non SLH personalities, no stick, no play. So nearly everything we can play is succeptable to Purity. Not to mention how often do people lose by dishonor? How often do people win by honor? And lets not forget that SLH cannot play political actions, which is huge, all of this more than balances out the inability to lose honor, especially since we cannot cause unconditional honor loss on our opponent either. Want to talk about box +1 holding getting out big peeps, first things first, Piller costs more than the box produces, so you need more then just the box to drop it, so your box + 1 argument is already flawed, secondly, if you look at other factions biggest non honor loss holding + their box (Lets say silk works + box) that means that Unicorn can buy any 11 gold peep, the 4 gold SH's can buy any 10 gold peep, and the 3 gold strongholds can buy any 9 force peep (buying on the cheap is a great ability denied to the Horde to keep us balanced), and looking at what they get for their money, it's just as impressive as what SLH puts out. Listening to some folks arguments about the power of the Horde, one would think that SLH has racked up a dozen or so Kotei wins and was the most powerful faction out there. Sorry folks, but it just ain't true, it's much better off post-HC than it was before, but it's definately not the most powerful. As far as Geisha Assassin, your talking about a card that kills one personality, not an entire faction and essentially ends the game. Big big big difference. Is purity effecting the environment? Not very much, but still that doesn't mean it's not an unfair, overly powerfull card that punishes people overly much for playing a single faction tht already has plenty of things holding it back to keep it balanced. -----Original Message----- From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com]On Behalf Of James Lyvers Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:46 PM To: 'L5r-ccg at alderac.com' Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? >> MANY 5+ Chi shugenja out there then you don't even need a big Chi bonus) Uh excuse me? There is only 1 non unique one in Diamond Soshi Angai (7G), and 2 in Reign of Blood Isawa Jun (9G), and Asako Katsuhito (8G), the rest of the Diamond Legal Shugies that are 5+ chi are unique are spread over 3-4 Clans there are only 13 of them not counting the Dragons, Most of them have high honor requirements, excepting those that are Shadowlands, and they average a cost of 10 gold. Though granted many of them are Pheonix, which should be able to use this spell better than other clans as they specialize in spellcraft. For the record their are 74 Shugenja that are diamond Legal that do not meet the description of having 5+ chi and only 16 of those are unique so there really not that many 5+ chi shugenja, except in Pheonix, and Shadowlands. They are all expensive and most have high honor requirements. So your argument holds little water. If a shadowlands player looses more than a few cards to Purity, One of the following happened. You did not attack enough, often enough, or soon enough. You missplayed at some critical juncture and used a card you would need to get rid of Purity or the people your opponent needs to cast it. Either way the cost of casting Purity is very balanced with what it does, and as a shadowlands player you should be aware of what your opponent can do to you, and play accordingly. L5R is more about making decisions about what to play and when than it is about what cards one has in ones deck. I can build a corrupted crab deck out of nothing but commons and whip the fear of God into a rare intensive political deck, just on how I play, and what decisions I make. If you are losing to a particular deck type/clan ask yourself if there was something you could do to stop it, more often than not the answer is within not without. And as for the discussion of how shadowlands is balanced on the no gain for no loss of honor, Cheeper peeps for having to pay full. Not being able to lose honor is a lot bigger than not being able to win by honor. That trait says there are a large (inordinate if you ask me) number of cards that just bounce off and have no effect, those effects usually involve cutting down peeps that would keep any other deck to a manageable level. As for the cheeper peeps. If you look at the cost of some of those peeps. Hmm lets see a 4/4 for 7 heck a 5/5 if you feel like sacking a holding, that is paying full. and if you happen to be running the right stronghold those peeps are 5/5 and 6/6 respectively, and you have a clan holding the makes 4, so box + 1 holding for 5/5 or a 6/6. What other clan even get's close to those kinds of stats for that kind of gold. So stop your whining. Shadowlands has enough advantages that worrying about 1 spell that requires 15 chi worth of shugenja to use is like complaining about Geisha Assasin being too good because it potentially can kill any of the Clan C hampions. It can, but it's a pretty steep price. Same with Purity. Akodo James Who thinks the Ratlings have more to complain about than Shadowlands ever did. -----Original Message----- From: Wright, Kenneth [SMTP:kenneth.wright at mirant.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:58 AM To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? So now you result to further insults... good way to back up your point. Your really looking like an adult here. Like I said, Purity is a lot easier to get out than you seem to want to give it credit for. 2 Shugenja and one big Chi bonus item like a clan sword is all it takes (and if they are any of the , and the game is over (heck, you could do it with 1 shuggie, but that would be tricky). As for my game, he had scorp control (placed 2nd overall), had all 3 Marus, and several other bowing machanisms out keeping almost my entire army bowed, just had enough to keep him from charging after me, brought out the Last Ashura, Kyofu, and Voitagi XP on the Turn before he puritied me by using only 2 shugenja. 3 cards + purity = end of game. So please, inform my "narrowminded" self about how any of those cards (soshuro tech which only works for CHI during duels, or Kharmic which at least ensures he loses as well, and both of which only destroy 1 personality) are as rediculously unbalanced as Purity. [rolleyes] -----Original Message----- From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com]On Behalf Of Jimmy Repine Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 11:33 PM To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: Re: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? >You aren't seriously comparing Kharmic, or any other card to POT7T are you? /sarcasim Of course I can't, because Pot7T is the most broken, overpowered card in the set and no other card can compare to it. /end sarcasim That's exactly what I am doing. >Kharmic = 1 dead dueler (and they lose a guy as well) >POT7T = End of Game Simply put, if you lose the game due to someone actually pulling off a Pot7T, then you deserve to lose the game. >Shosuro Technique = 1 dead dueler (and they lose a guy as well) >POT7T = END OF GAME For ShoTech, that's not the case. In most cases, if they are smart about it, they will focus, because a dueling deck, their most valuable resource is their fate hand and they can't afford to be focusing it away. >You lose one dueler that you spent 20 gold on, last time I had Purity unleashed on me, >it ended up taking out 26 cards! Thats right 26 cards, 9 personalities (Kyofu, Iuchiban, >Ashura (x2) Shukemei (x2), Voitagi (x2), Voitagi XP) all the cards attached to them >(Ruby, Kokujins Daisho, Blackened Claws (x3), Porcelain Mask xp, Yakamo's Claw), >and all my holdings (3 Pillars, 3 Daigotsu Dojos, Shadowlands Bastion, 2 Corrupted Dojo's) >save the 3 private dojos I had, and one region (Shadowlands Marsh) (total gold cost >for it all was about 140). I went from winning the next turn to losing the game (and the Kotei). Again, if you actually had all of that in play, and they got off a Pot7T against you, then you really deserved to lose. >Tell me again how Kharmic or Shosuro is even remotely anywhere near as unbalanced as Purity, please, I gotta hear this. I can tell from that comment that your narrowmindness would prevent you from grasping the concept, so I am not going to waste my time. Jimmy Repine Hitomi Yamesh Dragon Clan Tattooed Jedi Master _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From daimyo_shi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 12:02:17 2004 From: daimyo_shi at yahoo.com (Doji Hajime) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:02:17 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? In-Reply-To: <2D321821BDADF341AFEA6ECB1EA2DBFE072505@ATLEXMS02.na.mirant.net> References: <2D321821BDADF341AFEA6ECB1EA2DBFE072505@ATLEXMS02.na.mirant.net> Message-ID: <40E43589.6040105@yahoo.com> Wright, Kenneth wrote: > > >>Look I will agree that Shadowlands shouldn't be affected by >>outmanuvered in Court when Shadowlands can't issue Iaijutsu Challenges. >> >> > >And what kind of Duels are we going to get in response to taking that one away? If your going to take that away ya got to leave us with some kind of out of battle dueling ability, or is that supposed to be reserved for Crane alone? Why cant we issue challenges to duels? This suggestion has me more than a little baffled. Especially when were refering to a duel that can be refused. > >How about this... I can't speak for all the SLH players, but I think we'd all agree to stop using Iaj Challenge if you let us use Battlefield of Shallow Graves (how a terrain is political is something I'm still trying to figure out) > > > > you missed the point here, I would say that you can't target Shadowlands with Outmanuvered in Court when Shadowlands can't use Iaijutsu challenge. The point of this statement is there are cards that don't make sense when interacting with Shadowlands. A clan player shouldn't lose honour for not taking a duel with a Shadowlands person. And likewise a Clan personality shouldn't be able to go to court and make it so Shadowlands cannot attack. I never seen 3 Twisted Forests, 3 Force of Will's in a deck, not even at Kotei 11.5. I not sure what political actions in Hidden City has shadowlands so screwed over so enlighten me. I do know that Daigatsu's Dojo is a very powerful card, that does some serious damage to nearly every clan in particular Crab, Crane and Mantis. -- Doji Hajime Crane Clan Iaijutsu master * Samurai * Double Chi * Unique * Experienced * Jade Hand "If you are loyal to your lord, you should lie, murder, steal, and cheat for him. If you rather commit Seppaku than do those things how loyal are you really?" Soshi Hakiko Third ranked Sensei in the Kakita Iaijutsu Academy In morning of Toturi II _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From lyversj at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 1 11:56:44 2004 From: lyversj at bellsouth.net (James Lyvers) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:56:44 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets Message-ID: <01C45F62.7B131B60.lyversj@bellsouth.net> I just found top of page 71 in the rulebook. It defines when something besides a player takes an action, and based on that I would say Kaede's Fan does not trigger off of A New Guardian. So the correct answer to the initial question. How much honor for wining a Words Cut Like Steel with 2 blade of Penance attached for a dishonored peep against a peep that has 2 PH, and gets A New Guardian played after is 2 for the duel, boosted to 3 by Keade's Fan, +4 for BoP#1, +4 for Bop#2, +2 for A New Guardian for a total of 13 honor divied up in 4 seperate gains of 3,4,4, and 2. Any one of which could be snatched, reduced, increased, negated, or messed with. Akodo James -----Original Message----- From: Robert Van Natter [SMTP:cloak72 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:55 AM To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets >From the archives(email ;) ) [Rules] Honor Gains > >Kaede's Fan + Blade of Penance - does KF increase the > >honor gain from BoP? No, for the same reason. The gain is not coming from "actions this Personality performs" or "duels this Personality wins". -- Jeff Alexander Lead Designer, L5R CCG Alderac Entertainment Group --- Kevin Schafer wrote: > Personally, I think it only works on Honor gains > inherent to the action or > duel. > > Kevin Schafer > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com > [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com] On > > Behalf Of James Lyvers > > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:26 AM > > To: 'gim at lsh.org'; 'L5r-ccg at alderac.com' > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double > Blade of Secrets > > > > So are you saying the Kaede's Fan would fire off > all three? Or are you > > saying that Kaede's Fan only works with Honor > gains inherent to the action > > or duel itself. It seems to me that if they are > seperate Keade's Fan > > would > > effect all three, as they are honor gained for > winning a duel (Keade's Fan > > Card Text). And I'm still not convinced A New > Guardian would trigger > > Keade's Fan. What qualifies as a personality > performing an action? A New > > Guardian doesn't even target the peeps that are > involved in the honor > > gain. > > > > Akodo James > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bob Galley [SMTP:gim at lsh.org] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 8:45 PM > > To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double > Blade of Secrets > > > > Comments below > > > > Nokutso no Shiryo > > Unicorn Clan Ancestor > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com On Behalf Of > Kevin Schafer > > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and > double Blade of Secrets > > > > > > Actually the Blades of Penance fire first. > > > > I can believe this rationale (that the blades fire > first.) James, I > > submit > > that the blades are separate honor gains by their > syntax -- or more > > importantly, Kaede's Fan's syntax. The Fan > "increases by 1" the honor gain > > from actions performed, duels won, and forces > crushed. Thus, the Fan is > > not > > a separate gain. It would seem to me that the > default then is, that each > > printed gain for a particular trigger is a > separate gain. > > > > > Resolve the effects one at a time. > > > > > > 1. One of your Courtier Personalities issues an > unrefusable > > > challenge to a non-Courtier Personality. > > > > > > When strike is called, a winner is determined. > It is at this > > > point that the Blades of Penance give their > honor gains. > > > > > > 1a. Blade of Penance (1) gives a 4 honor gain > which will > > > instead rehonor the samurai. > > > > > > 1a(1)New Guardian reacts to the rehonoring of > the samurai > > > giving you (4+2) 6 honor. > > > > Note: the +2 honor is a separate effect! > Therefore, it is a gain from an > > action, that the Fan can react .. Er.. Trait to. > :) > > > > > 1b Blade of Penance (2) gives a 4 honor gain > > > > > > 2. The winner's controller gains Honor equal to > the loser's > > > Personal Honor. > > > > > > Words Cut Like Steel gives a 2 honor gain > > > > > > 2a Kaede's fan increases the gain to 3. > > > > > > Total gain 6+4+3=13 > > > > > > In my opinion the only honor created by a duel > is the honor > > > gain given by Words Cut Like Steel. > > > > > > Kevin Schafer > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com On Behalf Of > James Lyvers > > > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and > double Blade of Secrets > > > > > > > > Are you sure about how the totals are arrived > at? I thought the > > > > traits would kick in before any reactions > could be played. > > > A la Seppukku. > > > > For again a total of 14/13. > > > > > > > > That is nitpicky, I know, but it seems to me > all three of those fall > > > > under the reward for winning a duel, no those > effects are not part of > > > > the duel, but by card text they are rewards > for winning a duel, the > > > > real question is are they seperate honor gains > because they come from > > > > seperate cards responding to the same trigger > "winning a duel" or are > > > > they all lumped together. I would play it as > if they were lumped > > > > together, but I'm usually wrong, for what that > is worth. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > L5r-ccg mailing list > > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > > > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > L5r-ccg mailing list > > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > > > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > ===== Hiruma Ayslyn Crab Clan Professional Medler Scout Samurai Hero "We are all just Samurai brother, but when we stand together, we are the Crab" "Pain shared is pain divided; joy shared is joy multiplied" Everything I needed to know, I learned from drinking at Callahan's __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From sascha.meyer at sdirekt-net.de Thu Jul 1 12:20:57 2004 From: sascha.meyer at sdirekt-net.de (Sascha Meyer) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:20:57 +0200 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES] Kyuden Gotei Message-ID: <000c01c45f87$64fca880$e8433ed4@q> Kyuden Gotei reads: "Kyuden Gotei counts as a Port card." Is this stronghold now actually a card in play and may be targeted as one? Or does it only count for the existence of port cards? _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From lyversj at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 1 12:20:15 2004 From: lyversj at bellsouth.net (James Lyvers) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:20:15 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES] Kyuden Gotei Message-ID: <01C45F65.C3C32BE0.lyversj@bellsouth.net> My understanding is that it can be used for things that look for ports, but not port cards. So yes you can use it with Kobune Crew. Akodo James -----Original Message----- From: Sascha Meyer [SMTP:sascha.meyer at sdirekt-net.de] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 12:21 PM To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES] Kyuden Gotei Kyuden Gotei reads: "Kyuden Gotei counts as a Port card." Is this stronghold now actually a card in play and may be targeted as one? Or does it only count for the existence of port cards? _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From newtonmm at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 14:43:46 2004 From: newtonmm at yahoo.com (Newton-BH) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [L5R-CCG] The legions, storyline results, etc. In-Reply-To: <40E377EB.30305@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040701184346.31633.qmail@web41713.mail.yahoo.com> There were bad choices, I think many people choose some guys because of the card they were and not because of history on the fiction and RPG games! Many people that play CCG (I can say about the players in brazil) don't read the fiction on Alderac page and don't play the RPG so if one of them had won the kotei they would choose a personality with a cool card! I would like to see many guys there to like Kachiko, Aramoro, Matsu Tsuko, Kitsuki Kaagi, Kuni Yori, Moto Tsume, Doji Shizue, Shiba Ujimitsu, etc. Geoff Spady wrote: I am about to express some views that will no doubt make me unpopular with a few people. If you're in the "OH MY GOD AEG SUCKS FOR MESSING WITH OUR SACROSANCT STORYLINE RESULTS" camp, you may want to skip the rest of the post, and get on with writing your flames. However, I honestly hope that people will read what I have to say before the flames commence, and maybe we can have even have some honest discussion with no flames at all. I know I am not the only one who is disappointed with some of the choices that have been made for the legions. I am not going to point any fingers, but some characters that were chosen, I simply do not understand. Personally, as long as there are characters out there that are more deserving and likely to join the legions, I consider it a storyline travesty to leave it at the kotei results only. Even if I didn't think some of the chosen characters weren't very good, there would still be people who I think would, and should join the legions. Matsu Tsuko willingly gave her life for the betterment of her clan, and her empire. Aramoro understood loyalty, honor, and duty better than any other character since, imho. How can you have Iuchi Karasu without Kuni Yori? I'm sure that if everyone who was interested sent AEG a list of names they felt deserved to be added (and no doubt some already have) there would easily be a hundred, and almost every one of them would be deserving. I am sure that AEG doesn't want to alienate anyone, and may not, in fact, even agree with my first assertion in the post, that not all the choices were very good. However, I am pretty sure that what they are aiming at is the above paragraph. There are characters who deserve to be in this legion, storyline wise. With each passing kotei where they are not selected, it becomes less and less likely that they will be. Therefore I am glad to see that AEG is going to add some characters. If they don't add the characters I want, I will still be sad, naturally, but I will be glad they are thinking about it, and that they want to make a good story for us. - Geoff Spady _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From gim at lsh.org Thu Jul 1 15:15:11 2004 From: gim at lsh.org (Bob Galley) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:15:11 -0500 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets In-Reply-To: <01C45F62.7B131B60.lyversj@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <200407011915.i61JFCt1013077@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com> Page 71, number 3. Actions which involve one or more personalities or followers in their cost, such as requiring them to bow or become dishonored, or which ** require targeting your own personalities or followers who meet certain restrictions **, such as being a shugenja or a tactician or having a chi above 2 (or in this case, being dishonored and involved in an honor gain), are performed by those cards. A New Guardian fits this pattern. The personality (ies) involved in A New Guardian perform the action. Thus, the 'gain 2 honor for each personality thus rehonored' gets the bonus from Kaede's Fan. Nokutso no Shiryo Unicorn Clan Ancestor > -----Original Message----- > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com > [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com] On Behalf Of James Lyvers > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:57 AM > To: 'L5r-ccg at alderac.com' > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade of Secrets > > I just found top of page 71 in the rulebook. It defines when > something besides a player takes an action, and based on that > I would say Kaede's Fan does not trigger off of A New > Guardian. So the correct answer to the initial question. > How much honor for wining a Words Cut Like Steel with 2 blade > of Penance attached for a dishonored peep against a peep that > has 2 PH, and gets A New Guardian played after is 2 for the > duel, boosted to 3 by Keade's Fan, +4 for BoP#1, +4 for > Bop#2, +2 for A New Guardian for a total of 13 honor divied > up in 4 seperate gains of 3,4,4, and 2. Any one of which > could be snatched, reduced, increased, negated, or messed with. > > Akodo James > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Van Natter [SMTP:cloak72 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:55 AM > To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double Blade > of Secrets > > >From the archives(email ;) ) [Rules] Honor Gains > > > >Kaede's Fan + Blade of Penance - does KF increase > the > >honor gain from BoP? > > No, for the same reason. The gain is not coming from "actions > this Personality performs" or "duels this Personality wins". > > -- Jeff Alexander Lead Designer, L5R CCG Alderac Entertainment Group > > > > --- Kevin Schafer > wrote: > > Personally, I think it only works on Honor gains inherent to the > > action or duel. > > > > Kevin Schafer > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com > > [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com] On > > > Behalf Of James Lyvers > > > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:26 AM > > > To: 'gim at lsh.org'; 'L5r-ccg at alderac.com' > > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double > > Blade of Secrets > > > > > > So are you saying the Kaede's Fan would fire off > > all three? Or are you > > > saying that Kaede's Fan only works with Honor > > gains inherent to the action > > > or duel itself. It seems to me that if they are > > seperate Keade's Fan > > > would > > > effect all three, as they are honor gained for > > winning a duel (Keade's Fan > > > Card Text). And I'm still not convinced A New > > Guardian would trigger > > > Keade's Fan. What qualifies as a personality > > performing an action? A New > > > Guardian doesn't even target the peeps that are > > involved in the honor > > > gain. > > > > > > Akodo James > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Bob Galley [SMTP:gim at lsh.org] > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 8:45 PM > > > To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com > > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and double > > Blade of Secrets > > > > > > Comments below > > > > > > Nokutso no Shiryo > > > Unicorn Clan Ancestor > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com On Behalf Of > > Kevin Schafer > > > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and > > double Blade of Secrets > > > > > > > > Actually the Blades of Penance fire first. > > > > > > I can believe this rationale (that the blades fire > > first.) James, I > > > submit > > > that the blades are separate honor gains by their > > syntax -- or more > > > importantly, Kaede's Fan's syntax. The Fan > > "increases by 1" the honor gain > > > from actions performed, duels won, and forces > > crushed. Thus, the Fan is > > > not > > > a separate gain. It would seem to me that the > > default then is, that each > > > printed gain for a particular trigger is a > > separate gain. > > > > > > > Resolve the effects one at a time. > > > > > > > > 1. One of your Courtier Personalities issues an > > unrefusable > > > > challenge to a non-Courtier Personality. > > > > > > > > When strike is called, a winner is determined. > > It is at this > > > > point that the Blades of Penance give their > > honor gains. > > > > > > > > 1a. Blade of Penance (1) gives a 4 honor gain > > which will > > > > instead rehonor the samurai. > > > > > > > > 1a(1)New Guardian reacts to the rehonoring of > > the samurai > > > > giving you (4+2) 6 honor. > > > > > > Note: the +2 honor is a separate effect! > > Therefore, it is a gain from an > > > action, that the Fan can react .. Er.. Trait to. > > :) > > > > > > > 1b Blade of Penance (2) gives a 4 honor gain > > > > > > > > 2. The winner's controller gains Honor equal to > > the loser's > > > > Personal Honor. > > > > > > > > Words Cut Like Steel gives a 2 honor gain > > > > > > > > 2a Kaede's fan increases the gain to 3. > > > > > > > > Total gain 6+4+3=13 > > > > > > > > In my opinion the only honor created by a duel > > is the honor > > > > gain given by Words Cut Like Steel. > > > > > > > > Kevin Schafer > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com On Behalf Of > > James Lyvers > > > > > Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Re: Kaede's Fan and > > double Blade of Secrets > > > > > > > > > > Are you sure about how the totals are arrived > > at? I thought the > > > > > traits would kick in before any reactions > > could be played. > > > > A la Seppukku. > > > > > For again a total of 14/13. > > > > > > > > > > That is nitpicky, I know, but it seems to me > > all three of those fall > > > > > under the reward for winning a duel, no those > > effects are not part of > > > > > the duel, but by card text they are rewards > > for winning a duel, the > > > > > real question is are they seperate honor gains > > because they come from > > > > > seperate cards responding to the same trigger > > "winning a duel" or are > > > > > they all lumped together. I would play it as > > if they were lumped > > > > > together, but I'm usually wrong, for what that > > is worth. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > L5r-ccg mailing list > > > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > > > > > > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > L5r-ccg mailing list > > > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > > > > > > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > L5r-ccg mailing list > > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > > > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > > > > ===== > Hiruma Ayslyn > Crab Clan Professional Medler Scout Samurai Hero > > > "We are all just Samurai brother, but when we stand together, > we are the Crab" > > "Pain shared is pain divided; joy shared is joy multiplied" > Everything I needed to know, I learned from drinking at Callahan's > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From chewbacc at terra.com.br Thu Jul 1 16:53:19 2004 From: chewbacc at terra.com.br (CHeWBaCCa) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:53:19 -0300 Subject: [L5R-CCG] The legions, storyline results, etc. References: <20040701184346.31633.qmail@web41713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002101c45fad$71676940$99e9fea9@chewbacca> Geoff, There is a point to consider on this Legion stuff.. I didnt found the exact text but was something like that: - Matsu Goemon said something like "For the empire!" or something... Followed by "Ten Thousand voice cried" or something like that... So what I imagine to be the legion of dead is a whole buch on people, not just the ones picked up on the storyline results... of course the only people who can be brought back in the end is the ones that people choose in the results... > Geoff Spady wrote: > I am about to express some views that will no doubt make me unpopular > with a few people. > > If you're in the "OH MY GOD AEG SUCKS FOR MESSING WITH OUR SACROSANCT > STORYLINE RESULTS" camp, you may want to skip the rest of the post, and > get on with writing your flames. However, I honestly hope that people > will read what I have to say before the flames commence, and maybe we > can have even have some honest discussion with no flames at all. > > I know I am not the only one who is disappointed with some of the > choices that have been made for the legions. I am not going to point > any fingers, but some characters that were chosen, I simply do not > understand. Personally, as long as there are characters out there that > are more deserving and likely to join the legions, I consider it a > storyline travesty to leave it at the kotei results only. > > Even if I didn't think some of the chosen characters weren't very good, > there would still be people who I think would, and should join the > legions. Matsu Tsuko willingly gave her life for the betterment of her > clan, and her empire. Aramoro understood loyalty, honor, and duty > better than any other character since, imho. How can you have Iuchi > Karasu without Kuni Yori? I'm sure that if everyone who was interested > sent AEG a list of names they felt deserved to be added (and no doubt > some already have) there would easily be a hundred, and almost every one > of them would be deserving. > > I am sure that AEG doesn't want to alienate anyone, and may not, in > fact, even agree with my first assertion in the post, that not all the > choices were very good. However, I am pretty sure that what they are > aiming at is the above paragraph. There are characters who deserve to > be in this legion, storyline wise. With each passing kotei where they > are not selected, it becomes less and less likely that they will be. > Therefore I am glad to see that AEG is going to add some characters. If > they don't add the characters I want, I will still be sad, naturally, > but I will be glad they are thinking about it, and that they want to > make a good story for us. > > - Geoff Spady > > > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From jalexander at alderac.com Thu Jul 1 17:57:49 2004 From: jalexander at alderac.com (Jeff Alexander) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:57:49 -0700 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [OFFICIAL] Watch List & Errata updates for July 2004 Message-ID: Shrine to Benten is no longer on the Watch List. No errata is being issued at this time to any remaining card. -- Jeff Alexander Lead Designer, L5R CCG Alderac Entertainment Group _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From moebliss at gci.net Thu Jul 1 18:50:10 2004 From: moebliss at gci.net (R & H Moeller) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:50:10 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Forward observer question Message-ID: <001001c45fbd$c3c56dd0$6401a8c0@moeller1> Marty, when forward observer uses his ability: battle: Bow forward observer to target a terrain. Until that terrain leaves play, it produces effects as if you had played it.(even if you could not legally play it). Does that mean that it does not resolve for your opponent? Does it mean that it affects the both of you equally? I can see this card turning into a headache fast. Thanks. Rick Moeller aka Hida Keikan Crab Clan Standard Bearer 04 Crab Clan Enforcer Region 15 TO _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kmack at alderac.com Thu Jul 1 19:45:32 2004 From: kmack at alderac.com (Kristy Mack) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:45:32 -0700 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Legion of the Dead Recruit - July 1st Message-ID: *drumroll* Okay, I have no drums. The newest recruit for the Legion of the Dead is: Matsu Hiroru -- Kristy Mack AEG Fan Club Coordinator kmack at alderac.com "You gave me peace in a lifetime of war." - Achilles _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From ltank at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 19:45:30 2004 From: ltank at yahoo.com (Laura Tank) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Legion of the Dead / Legion of Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701234530.83334.qmail@web51401.mail.yahoo.com> --- Robert Sanderson wrote: > > Uhhh.... How does this /not/ take away something > from a Kotei winner? > > They won a Kotei tournament to try and do something > interesting, special > and unique ... then it's diluted by having another > 20 added. This seems > to be just adding insult to injury after making > foils available for koku. > People work Really Hard to win a storyline prize > (for example Faber giving > away hundreds of dollars worth of Prize support to > get the choice) and > then ... the specialness of it is whipped out like > the proverbial table > cloth. ---Personally when I hear the word "legion" it means more than 2 people. I had assumed all along that AEG was going to add others to each side as we went along in the season...to pad the ranks. ===== -Laura (Asako Miao-Yin) Phoenix Clan Bloodspeaker * Pied Piper of Taint * Pantsless * Maho Lover * Fu Leng's Concubine * Shahai's Errand Girl "Spin the bottle regional champion - Origins 2004." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From Sphynx at aol.com Thu Jul 1 20:32:25 2004 From: Sphynx at aol.com (Sphynx at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:32:25 EDT Subject: [L5R-CCG] Legion of the Dead Recruit - July 1st Message-ID: <8e.ec7818d.2e160719@aol.com> In a message dated 7/1/04 4:46:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kmack at alderac.com writes: The newest recruit for the Legion of the Dead is: Matsu Hiroru Picked at the Faceless Kotei by someone playing Ninja or Toturi's Army? Ookami Koan Dragon Clan Master of Mujina, Monk, Legion of the Wolf Mischievous Lackey to Rob Bowman 3rd Member of Team 3rd Place _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kenneth.wright at mirant.com Thu Jul 1 20:46:09 2004 From: kenneth.wright at mirant.com (Wright, Kenneth) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:46:09 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? Message-ID: <2D321821BDADF341AFEA6ECB1EA2DBFE072506@ATLEXMS02.na.mirant.net> -----Original Message----- From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com]On Behalf Of Doji Hajime Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:02 AM To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: Re: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? >you missed the point here, I would say that you can't target Shadowlands >with Outmanuvered in Court when Shadowlands can't use Iaijutsu >challenge. The point of this statement is there are cards that don't >make sense when interacting with Shadowlands. A clan player shouldn't >lose honour for not taking a duel with a Shadowlands person. I didn't miss the point at all. Is it any less honorable to be a coward in the face of evil than it is in the face of another Samurai? Isn't cowering from a duel against a Shadowlands Samurai or Bushi just as dishonorable as cowering away from a duel against a Crane or Lion Samurai? It makes perfect sence to me. >And likewise a Clan personality shouldn't be able to go to court and make it >so Shadowlands cannot attack. I never seen 3 Twisted Forests, 3 Force of Will's in a deck, not >even at Kotei 11.5. Like I said, let me know where you live, because about half the people down here run 3 of each in any of their decks that have shugenja in them. >I not sure what political actions in Hidden City has >shadowlands so screwed over so enlighten me. It's not the political actions per sey that specifically screw over shadowlands, it's all the support that those political/control style decks (mostly scorpion) have recieved that makes them so deadly to Shadowlands. In Kotei 2 I personaly watched several Scorpion dishonor/controll decks tear apart SLH decks, it's been a topic of conversation not only at that Kotei, but on shadowlands clan forums about how there are no more easy wins. Those archtypes have the support they need that fits in perfectly with the scheme and is usefull against every clan. Theres a reason why scorpion has become one of the most feared clans in the current environment. >I do know that Daigatsu's >Dojo is a very powerful card, that does some serious damage to nearly >every clan in particular Crab, Crane and Mantis. Daigotsu Dojo... vs Crane? Against Crab it's a sweet card. Against Mantis it's okay, it at least slows dow the attrittion of doom that Matis can pull off on SLH (it's not our best matchup by a longshot). Against Crane it's a fricken joke. Let me bow a personality and a holding to knock 1 Chi off of your 4 (or 5 or 6 or 8) Chi dueling personalities... D Dojo is there to kill low chi peeps, Cranes High Chi makes it nearly worthless unless you Sezaru's gift one it a few times to bump up the Chi penalty, and even then the most dangerous Crane duelers still won't die, and by the time you even get around to doing that they are probably sitting pretty at about 80 honor anyways. And what Daigotsu Dojo has to do with Purity of the Seven Thunders has me more than a little confused anyways, especially when somebody can just take your thrice Sezaru'd Dojo, and Fist of the Earth (a very popular card recently) it or Explosives it, or Contested Holding (owie) it, or Corrupt Officials it(two more very popular cards recently as well). _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From Whitecat31 at aol.com Thu Jul 1 20:51:08 2004 From: Whitecat31 at aol.com (Whitecat31 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:51:08 EDT Subject: [L5R-CCG] Legion of the Dead Recruit - July 1st Message-ID: <57.2db65da9.2e160b7c@aol.com> In a message dated 7/1/2004 5:33:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Sphynx at aol.com writes: > The newest recruit for the Legion of the Dead is: > > > > Matsu Hiroru > Picked at the Faceless Kotei by someone playing Ninja or Toturi's Army? > > Ookami Koan > Dragon Clan Master of Mujina, Monk, Legion of the Wolf > Mischievous Lackey to Rob Bowman > 3rd Member of Team 3rd Place I would tell you, but then of course, I would have to make it so you did not exist anymore. Topic essay assignment.. A world without Lambchops. WC _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From shaw.ken at worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 1 21:02:53 2004 From: shaw.ken at worldnet.att.net (Ken Shaw) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:02:53 -0500 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? References: <2D321821BDADF341AFEA6ECB1EA2DBFE072506@ATLEXMS02.na.mirant.net> Message-ID: <003e01c45fd0$4df1e030$b680fea9@your4di1s53ime> >I didn't miss the point at all. Is it any less honorable to be a coward in the face of evil than it is >in the face of another Samurai? Isn't cowering from a duel against a Shadowlands Samurai or >Bushi just as dishonorable as cowering away from a duel against a Crane or Lion Samurai? >It makes perfect sence to me. I have never gotten this at all. How could the Maw possibly challenge a human samurai to a iajitsu duel? If the Maw shows up talking smack the honorable thing to do is go gather up an army and send it back to Jigoku not try and out fast draw the thing. Thematically at least iajitsu duels should be limited to humans and perhaps naga and ratlings. Ken _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kenneth.wright at mirant.com Thu Jul 1 21:21:25 2004 From: kenneth.wright at mirant.com (Wright, Kenneth) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:21:25 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? Message-ID: <2D321821BDADF341AFEA6ECB1EA2DBFE072507@ATLEXMS02.na.mirant.net> -----Original Message----- From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com]On Behalf Of James Lyvers Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:51 AM To: 'L5r-ccg at alderac.com' Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? >There are 120 personalities that do not have the shadowlands trait and do >have a - honor requirement. And many of those have decent stats. I never >said SLH was the most powerful, but you are making it out like they don't >have any power at all because of one card that an opponent might never get >the chance to play. I never said that at all, you are putting words into my mouth and I don't appreciate it. Your nickname says Akodo, but your words sound more like Bayushi as they twist mine. There are a lot more than 120 personalities that arent member of the Lion clan, why not just tell Lion players to play with non-Lion personalities and see how that goes over with them. Crane players complain (rightfully so IMHO) about a lack of millitary Force, why not tell them to just play with Crab personalities from now on, or how about telling lion to grab some crane to get more Courtiers since they seem to be upset about that. How about the Ratlings, they could start playing with all Cranes since they have had trouble dueling. See how utterly rediculous it looks when you take this suggestion and apply it to other clans. And lets not forget that I can buy about ohhhhh ZERO things unless I put Shadowlands holdings in my deck as I play Temple of the Ninth. Get rid of our Shadowlands cards and even the Rats would be looking down at us and laughing. We would easily be the worst clan by a long shot, and after spending all of diomand pre-HC as one of the bottom 3 clans, I'll pass on that thank you. >By your own words it is not affecting the environment >so what is the BFD? I didn't make a big deal, somebody asked why it was still legal, I answered his one question with a single reply, and then I was replied to by a couple of people that decided it would be more fun to insult me than actually try and discuss the very valid points that I made. And when I responded to those insulting "people" Others jumped in and made it a big deal. And I also said it doesn't have a big effect on the environment, but when somebody goes to a Kotie, spends several hundreds of Dollars to make it there, and then has a single cheezy card eliminate them during the single elims when they were otherwise hammering their opponent, sorry, but the effect that card can have on certain individuals can mean quite a bit to those individuals. And just because it doesn't have a huge effect on the general environment doesn't make it a balanced or fair card. Just because it's not screwing the vast majority of players doesn't make it a good or fair card. SLH is in the Minority, but we should be given the same fair treatment that any other clan gets, and vice versa, and having one easy to get out spell that nukes your entire card base is flat out rediculous. If it was your clan that was hit by it, I can guarantee that you'd feel differently about it. You ask what the BFD is, well, why are you making such a big deal about it in it's defense, are you that afraid of SHL that your scared of this card going away? Afraid that you might actially have to build a solid deck that can deal with everything, including the horde without some cheezy spell to save you? Why are you making such a big deal in it's defense? >If it isn't affecting the environment that probably >means that it's not going off very often or not to great effect, which was >exactly the crux of my argument. If it gets to the point where they can >cast it and that equals game over, then they either got lucky, or you misplayed. Not at all, you apparently havn't been listening to a single word I'm saying, the card is rediculously easy to fire off. The only reason we don't see it or hear about it more is because it only nails 1/10th of the factions. So we only hear about it in areas where SLH has taken a strong presence. (Like the Region 2 Kotei) I have played games with Dragon and Unicorn and been in a position to Fire off purity on the 5th turn. If I ever played Scorpion or Phoenix it might even happen quicker. It's not difficult to get into position to end the game, especiialy when you can Walking the Way for the spell. >And if they design their deck around getting it out, all that >means is they are fodder for all the decks out their that aren't >shadowlands, so the chance of Pot7 getting any serious play time is nill, >there are just too many better cards. Not to mention the best defense >against it (Ryoshun's Last Words), is generally a good card to play >anyway, because it stops so many other things. Again, your not paying attention, you don't have to set anything around getting it out, most tourney decks nowadays have card search in them, so getting the spell into your hand is easy, and getting that many Chi of Shugenja is rediculously easy, especially since it's not "Printed Chi" just Current Chi. So you don't have to build squat, just drop it in, and if your running any kind of Shugenja in your deck at all you can have it out blazingly fast if you need it. _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kenneth.wright at mirant.com Thu Jul 1 21:33:21 2004 From: kenneth.wright at mirant.com (Wright, Kenneth) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:33:21 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? Message-ID: <2D321821BDADF341AFEA6ECB1EA2DBFE072509@ATLEXMS02.na.mirant.net> True, if they made it so oni's couldn't issue challanges, then yeah, I could dig that even. But Daigotsu Toru (Human Samurai) or Kyofu (Onisu in a samurai's body, non human, but close enough that it makes sence)should definately be able to issue Iajitsu Duels, but I can agree that Oni's are so inhuman (except for Ickybums himself) that it does seem a little silly. -----Original Message----- From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com]On Behalf Of Ken Shaw Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:03 PM To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: Re: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? >I didn't miss the point at all. Is it any less honorable to be a coward in the face of evil than it is >in the face of another Samurai? Isn't cowering from a duel against a Shadowlands Samurai or >Bushi just as dishonorable as cowering away from a duel against a Crane or Lion Samurai? >It makes perfect sence to me. I have never gotten this at all. How could the Maw possibly challenge a human samurai to a iajitsu duel? If the Maw shows up talking smack the honorable thing to do is go gather up an army and send it back to Jigoku not try and out fast draw the thing. Thematically at least iajitsu duels should be limited to humans and perhaps naga and ratlings. Ken _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kaioto at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 21:33:03 2004 From: kaioto at yahoo.com (Martin Lund) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Rules for 29 June 2004 Message-ID: <20040702013303.74555.qmail@web54105.mail.yahoo.com> Your Rules for Tuesday, June 29, 2004 * * * * * * * * * * From: Lucradan Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:22 pm Subject: [L5R-CCG] The Order of Things First, a note from me. When writing email to the list, please use MSDOS / UNIX format text. Specialty characters like "curly quotes" that some word processing programs create COUGH*MSWORD*COUGH aren't going to come across as valid text characters and when I view them via the archive to do my posts, I'm going to have to dig out each and every one and replace it. Alternatively, I could skip the post entirely. Anyway, on with the show. > My interpretation has always been the following: > > 1. Announce Action > 2. Select Targets for Costs > 3. Pay Costs > 4. Select Targets for Effect\s > 5. Generate Effect\s The understanding is incorrect. All targeting that is unconditional (not a "may then" or "if ... then" condition) is done during the Targeting Step, before costs are paid. It does not matter whether the target is chosen to fulfill a cost or receive an effect. The Rulebook says ALL of them have to be chosen before the Action is legal. > If multiple effects occur in a specific order, steps 4 > and 5 will repeat for each effect. Nope. > To understand this, I'll call upon our good friend Kuro's Fire As I've pointed out numerous times, Consecutive Ranged Attacks do not follow the default targeting rules because they have their own special ones from the rulebook. (Diamond Edition Rulebook, page 98) > Elemental Battle: Bow this Shugenja to make a number > of consecutive ranged attacks See? Consecutive Ranged Attacks. They use special rules. > From page 55 of the rulebook, I?d have to choose all > the targets of Kuro?s Fire BEFORE I pay the costs and > BEFORE any effects resolve. This leads to a bit of a > contradiction with page 90: > > 'A ranged attack must target a single car opposing the > cards making the ranged attack: either a Follower or > a Personality without Followers.' They are supposed to be in contradiction. Consecutive Ranged Attacks have a special rule that overrides the general rules. > A similar problem occurs with Suiteru no Oni. By the > current state of the game, here is what happens. > After I announce the actions I'm in a bit of a dilemma > with step #2. > > I have to choose all the targets for the actions (and > subsequently, where I'm going to put all of those > follower tokens and how many). Here is where a few > problems arise. > > #1 What targets do I choose first, the targets of the > cost or targets of the effect? All of them at once. There is no conflicting simultaneous effect mumbo-jumbo going on. Pick them all, because that's what the Rulebook says to do. > Logically, I'd have to say to choose the cost target > first as that would determine how many tokens I would > have available, but the current order of things just > says choose targets. Just pick a legal designation. It doesn't matter whether you say, "I pick Bob, Frank, and Larry to get tokens and Harry to get eaten" or "I pick Harry to get eaten while Bob, Frank, and Larry get tokens." Just pick any legal configuration and run with it. > #2 There is nothing preventing me from targeting cost > personality with an effect. No. There is not. Is that a problem? > #3 What happens when the personality that was used to > pay costs is returned to play. At the announcing of > the action, the personality WAS a legal target WHEN > targets were announced which was BEFORE costs were > even paid. > > Because of this, Rule #2 was created, which I believe > is a based on a misinterpretation of the rulebook. By > my interpretation, Rule #1 would be redundant and > unnecessary and Rule #2 would be incorrect. Well, I do not believe that Jeff is misinterpreting the Rulebook in this case. If you'd like to suggest a new timing mechanism for actions, I'd talk to someone on the Design Team in private mail. * * * * * * * * * * From: VegasMentat at a... Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:52 am Subject: [L5R-CCG] {RULES} Marty > If I play flee the darkness in response to Volcanic Fields what happens? Yes. It targets when it resolves. Delayed Terrains don't play like regular actions in their timing. > Does Flee the Darkness do anything or does VF just resolve again? It gets Canceled. It does not resolve again. * * * * * * * * * * From: Lee T Boswell Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:42 am Subject: [L5R-CCG] Egg Question [RULES] > Crab was playing the Crane. Crane > player got Kurohito out. Crab Egged Kurohito. Does the Crab player gain > access to all the Winds? Because of the wording on Kurohito I can't tell > if it is supposed to be an entering play effect, or a continous check > type of effect. Continuous check. The is no "when" trigger, only "while you control ..." * * * * * * * * * * From: Martin Lund Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:12 am Subject: Re: [L5R-CCG] Choosing from variable effects, redirection, and my resulting confusion... --- Mirumoto Kentei wrote: > Cut and Pasted from http://l5r.alderac.com/rulings/ > > If an action gives you an option of which effect to > use (e.g., Moto Latomu, Scrutiny's Sweet Sting), you > must announce which you intend to use when you > announce the action. [ML, 22 June 2004] > > Scrutiny's Sweet Sting > If redirected, you can attempt to remove any trait > allowed (even if the new target Personality has none > of them). [ML, 27 May 2004] [MARTY] The newer ruling overrides the old one. The newer ruling came after some Rules Team discussions. > My opponent plays SSS to remove the Shugenja trait > from one of my shugenja, and I redirect with > Danjuro. > > Therefore SSS will: A) Remove the non-existant > Shugenja trait from Danjuro, B) Allow my opponent > "to remove any trait", and remove the Samurai trait, > C) It can't be redirected, as Danjuro doesn't have > the Shugenja trait, or D) Something else. [MARTY] It will try to remove the Shugenja trait. If Danjuro lacks the trait, the effect will fail. > Part 2: From the DE rulebook, page 74 "You can > redirect an action or effect only to something else > it could have targeted originally." When is > originally determined? At announcement, targeting, > start of effects? Does it consider the game state > when I announced the action, or the game state now? > For example, if I play Kolat Assassin, and my > opponent uses plays "Reaction: Lose 2 Chi to > redirect a Limited Action." on a 6 Chi peep. When I > played KA, he had 6 Chi (not a legal target), but > now he has 4 Chi (legal). Is he a legal target for > the KA? Maybe just a clean up for aisle Lotus. [MARTY] That is pretty ambiguous, isn't it? I clarified with Jeff. It isn't meant to refer to the prior game state, but to the fact that you must abide the original targeting restrictions of the card as it was played - so if you redirect an opponent's Action, you are restricted to redirecting to stuff that same opponent can target, not just stuff - you - can target. * * * * * * * * * * From: Martin Lund Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:53 pm Subject: Re: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Timing of Air and Water -followup [Part The Second] Comments Below: --- popejubal at y... wrote: > I am now reposting the email that I had previously sent, but this > time, I'm actually including the questions that I had meant to ask > rather than just assuming that Marty would pluck them from my > brain. > > Jeff, I know that Marty's been working very hard at > this job, but I think that he does need to be punished appropriately > for failing to answer questions that I meant to ask but had > forgotten to actually put in the email. [MARTY] AAAAAHHHH!! It stings! It burns! It stings! It burns! Thank to you, they made me sit by this portal they call a "window" and there is this huge looming ball of burning gasses on the other side trying to irradiate me. You'll pay for this. ;-) > ...anyway, here it is: > > Actions are considered successfully cast or successfully performed > after both players have passed on reactions after Announcement, > Targeting and Paying Costs. > > That means that I play the Ring of Water after Announcements, > Targeting and Paying Costs of my fourth battle action in a battle, > but before the action resolves. > > Is this correct? [MARTY] Yes, though you have to wait for the appropriate Reactions to be played out for each step as well. Only after all players elect to pass on their opportunity to React in the Cost Payment step is that step completed so that the Action is "taken." > Actions can be canceled after they have begun to resolve, though > and actions that are canceled are considered to not have been taken, > although no costs are refunded and no effects that have already > taken place are undone. > > Happy Fun Ball was a big example of this in Gold. > > Isawa's Last Wish > Unique > Battle: Destroy an opposing card. The target's controller then > destroys any one of your cards. [MARTY] You forgot the flavor text: "Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball." > If I'm playing an Asako Towers deck and I blow up one of your > personalities and you then try to blow up one of my Samurai or > Shugenjs, I can cancel the action and it now never happened - but > costs are not refunded (there are no costs here) and effects that > have taken place are not undone (your personality is still dead) > > Asako Towers: > Reaction: When an action targets one of your Shugenja personalities, > bow the Towers of the Asako to cancel it. Reaction: When an action > targets one of your Samurai, bow one of your Shugenja Personalities > to cancel it. > 0) I take three battle actions in one battle > 1) Isawa's Last Wish is my fourth Battle action in this battle and I'm > holding the Ring of Water. > 2) I announce that I'm going to use Isawa's Last Wish to blow up > Moto Bob. > 3) I choose targets (Moto Bob) > 4) I wait for reactions. > 5) I pay costs (none). > 6) I wait for reactions. My opponent does not react. [MARTY] Neither do you. Now the Action is considered "taken" and you can play Reactions to that fact, but never again to Cost Payment. That's a hard break in Reaction timing to keep the proverbial Chocolate out of the metaphorical Peanut Butter. > 7) I now play the Ring of Water since I just successfully played my > fourth battle action (although its effects have not taken place). > 8) Effects resolve. Moto Bob dies in a firey bath of arcane, um... > fire. [MARTY] Here I get this picture of them just crushed to death under a pile of rabbits. Go figure. > 9) My opponent now chooses Shiba Joe to die. > 10) I laugh at him and bow Isawa Frank to cancel the action. [MARTY] You forgot to admonish him for taunting Happy Fun Ball. That'll be a yellow card for you. > Isawa's Last Wish has now *NOT* been used and the action was > never taken. The Ring of Water is already in play and Moto Bob is > already dead, so those effects are not reversed. > > I have now taken only three battle actions (not four), but I managed > to play the Ring of Water in spite of the fact that I have taken only > three battle actions this turn. > > Is this correct? If so, that bothers me. [MARTY] That is correct. Yeah, it bothers me a bit too. I believe it is a hold-over from the Jade Era when they were first drawing concrete distinctions between Negating and Cancellation. Cancellation wasn't allowed to "use up" once-per-turn abilities. The fallout is that you get situations where you can play something triggered on the Nth time something happens, and then erase that Nth time from history with Cancellation. I understand and respect your concern there. Perhaps Jeff and company may have something up there sleaves regarding this issue when it comes to establishing the Lotus format. * * * * * * * * * * Tossing in some Jeff while I'm at it. From: Jeff Alexander Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [L5R-CCG][Rules]Legality - Danjuro > >Jeff just a quick question. >>"Shiba Danjuro >>Phoenix Clan Yojimbo * Samurai Soul of Shiba Raigen Reaction: When an action >>targets one of your Shugenja, bow Danjuro to redirect that action >>to Danjuro, if >>legal. If the Shugenja is in an army, Danjuro must be in the same >>army to take this >>action." >> >>the part that Danjuro said that he need be legal to redirect to >>himself are aplied >>when? When you want to use his ability. > >i read few e-mails about how danjuro can redirect Scrutiny's Sweet >Sting, when you >>try remove a shugenja trait from a shugenja, but sice danjuro are >>not a shugenja >>and you need anoyuce the effect before the reaction, Danjuro will >>be a illegal > >target, no?? No. Scrutiny's Sweet Sting does not require a Personality with the trait to be removed. It targets "a Personality". Danjuro is a Personality. * * * * * * * * * * From: brewingt at t... Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:21 pm Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES] Kokujin's Daisho vs. Rhetoric > If I attach Kokujin's Daisho to a Courtier with 3 Chi, can I Rhetoric the > 4-honor loss to my opponent using that same Courtier? (Does the +1C bonus > occur before the honor loss?) Kokujin's Daisho must enter play before its trait causes you an honor loss. Consequently, its stat bonuses will also be in effect. * * * * * * * * * * From: "Mad Mokujin" Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:54 pm Subject: [L5R-CCG] Question > Can you use Summon Earth Kami to create a unit on any player's side during > an Ambush? Yes. You neither assign nor move the created unit, so Ambush does not bother you. * * * * * * * * * * From: "Doji Karibu" Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:34 pm Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES] Rules for 26 June 2004 - Decoy > And to make things a little clearer, what happens to the rest of the unit > (items, followers...), are they still destroyed ? > Decoy says "cancel the destruction", so I assume we speak about the > destruction of the personality, but we could also understand "cancel the > whole destuction effect". You can't Cancel effects, only Negate them. Decoy only Negates the effect of destroying the Personality. An effect that destroys a unit destroys a personality and all attached cards. If the Personality's destruction is negated this in no way inhibits the effect of destroying all attached cards. * * * * * * * * * * From: Martin Lund Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:16 pm Subject: [L5R-CCG] Update from the Rules Team - Rage / Control the Field / etc. Hello folks, I'm just passing along some information. Jeff proposed the following, and Rules Team gave it the stamp of approval, so here's a new ruling that will reverse a couple of previous ones, I'm sure: "Playing" a card is considered "taking an action" in all ways if (and only if) that card is an Action card. So, if you play a new Action card via Rage or Control the Field, it will count towards the number of actions taken during that phase, and be required to go through the normal "taking an Action" process of announcement, targeting, paying costs, and resolution. * * * * * * * * * * From: "Jimmy Repine" Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:25 pm Subject: [L5R-CCG] Cost, Cancelling, and CotW > Something has been bugging me about this and I've finally been able to pin > it down... > > If I use the Castle of the Wasp to prevent a personality from bowing, and > that ranged attack is cancelled, why is the not considered used? The real question is, "Why can you use it at all, since the Personality isn't making a ranged attack by the time you could use the trait to prevent the bowing?" Basically, it is a hold-over ruling. It is getting cleaned up with some other cancellation revamping coming out soon. > Bowing the personality is a COST for preforming the action. Instead of > bowing the personality though, you are using the stronghold to satisify the > cost. Since the SH was used to pay the cost, it shouldn't be refunded and > should be considered used. "Once per turn" is never a COST. It isn't something that you need to worry about refunding. It is simply a true / false flag. If the Personality hasn't made the Ranged Attack yet (due to canceling) then he hasn't violated the "one per turn" parameters. * * * * * * * * * * That looks like everything for Tuesday. If I missed your question, please repost it with the flag [RULES] as part of a clear and distinct subject line and I'll get back to you at the first opportunity. Thank you, - Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From youta at rollanet.org Thu Jul 1 21:49:34 2004 From: youta at rollanet.org (Robert Hobart) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:49:34 -0500 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Tournament reminder annnouncement, July 10th Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20040702014934.01498664@rollanet.org> One-week notice to the list: An L5R Sealed Deck tournament will be held at Eclipse Books and Comics in Rolla, Missouri, at 2pm on Saturday, July 10th. First and second place will get tickets to GenCon Indy. First through fourth place will get selections from an assortment of rares and foil rares, including Feign Death, Kyofu, and a set of foil Focus cards. For more details and directions, e-mail the store at . Rob Hobart CogCon Chair President of GEAR Owner, Eclipse Books and Comics LLC Campaign Admin, Heroes of Rokugan (Champions of the Emerald Empire) Heroes of Rokugan current homepage: www.living-rokugan.com CogCon Homepage: www.rollanet.org/~cogcon _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From spamyb at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 22:11:33 2004 From: spamyb at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Spamy?=) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:11:33 +1000 (EST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Silly Ruling [Rules] Message-ID: <20040702021133.15810.qmail@web50909.mail.yahoo.com> Ok because of the current wording here is a silly way to play the ring of air that appears legal but after you have played it you will have only cast 2 spells or kihos. Step 1 cast any spell or kiho Step 2 cast Ryoshun's Last Words targeting the unravelling you have in play Step 3 after choosing targets and paying the cost you have successfully cast the spell but its effects have not happened yet so you bow unravelling to cancel the kiho. Step 4 After successfully casting unravelling but before its effect occur play Ring of Air Step 5 Ryoshun's Last Words is canceled leaving you with only two successfully cast spells or kihos and the Ring of Air Is this legal? Andrew ===== Mat?rik?chick Blue Fur Tribe * One Tribe ?I save human, but he die, he give me swords and quest, Twenty goblin heads I collect.? Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From k_tetsuko at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 22:22:17 2004 From: k_tetsuko at yahoo.com (Darrin Clough) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? Message-ID: <20040702022217.21875.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com> >True, if they made it so oni's couldn't issue challanges, then yeah, I could dig >that even. But Daigotsu Toru (Human Samurai) or Kyofu (Onisu in a samurai's >body, non human, but close enough that it makes sence)should definately be able >to issue Iajitsu Duels, but I can agree that Oni's are so inhuman (except for >Ickybums himself) that it does seem a little silly. Lets make all non-human / non-samurai personalities immune to political actions and being dishonored as well. While we are at it, let?s make any Clan facing the SLH or Ratlings unable to win by honor since the Ratlings and SLH wouldn?t recognize the Emperor and thus would recognize that the other Clan won. W hy not just get rid of honor and politics in the game all together? Better yet, why don?t all the Great Clans auto win by honor against the SLH since the SLH can?t win by honor, thus they also cannot challenge the claim that the Clan they are facing is more honorable? In all serious, there are a few things that don?t quite make much sense mechanically, but exist for balance. The SLH already has a lot of advantages which make them immune to many iaijutsu and political actions. Making the SLH immune to ALL Iaijutsu and / or Political actions as well as possibly making them unable to be dishonored, would just make the SLH even more dominate since they would be immune to even more aspects of the game. Darrin Clough __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From beattyr2003 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 23:38:50 2004 From: beattyr2003 at earthlink.net (Robert Beatty) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:38:50 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why complain? Message-ID: <006701c45fe6$19dedfd0$6c8979a5@DFDWZP21> I truly don't understand why people pick NOW to gripe about Purity. SLH is now quite competitive. I could understand at the beginning of the arc, but not now. It boils down to this, sure theres one card that hoses most of your deck, however, in certain situations you could say the same for other clans. Crane/Dragon dueling gets its uber unit built, and your pretty much boned. I've had my side of the board cleared by Dragon dueling. I had the cards in hand to destroy the unit, i just needed a peep to stay in play till my turn, never happend. Scorpion kauk honor bomb kills many a clan dead in a hurry with the right combo. In many cases SLH can kill more peeps than any other clan, that being said, purity isnt that big a deal. Your certainly not going to see it out of Crab, Ratling, HoT, Lion, Mantis and other SLH decks at least not highly competitive ones. Thats about half if not more of the deck types you would meet in an event. Its not that bad, would you prefer iris festival instead? Bayushi Daremo Scorpion Clan *Ninja* Samurai Troublemaker Shadowed Tower *Bloodspeaker* _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kenneth.wright at mirant.com Fri Jul 2 00:07:06 2004 From: kenneth.wright at mirant.com (Wright, Kenneth) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:07:06 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why complain? Message-ID: <2D321821BDADF341AFEA6ECB1EA2DBFE07250A@ATLEXMS02.na.mirant.net> -----Original Message----- From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com]On Behalf Of Robert Beatty Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:39 PM To: AEG_L5R Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why complain? >I truly don't understand why people pick NOW to gripe about Purity. SLH is >now quite competitive. I could understand at the beginning of the arc, but >not now. Well, for one, nobody asked the question on here until just recently. It doesn't matter wether SLH is competative or not, thats not the question, the question is wethere there is a need in the game to have a spell that ends the game all by itself when used against a SLH deck. Secondly, now is the perfect time to start bringing up issues we have with certain cards and concepts, after all the new bugs are going to start showing up soon, and if there is something that you dont feel has a place in the upcoming arc, now is the best time to start bringing those issues up instead of waiting untill the last second and springing it on the design team. >It boils down to this, sure theres one card that hoses most of >your deck, however, in certain situations you could say the same for other >clans. Crane/Dragon dueling gets its uber unit built, and your pretty much >boned. Thats why you build more than one unit up, if your relying on one single unit, then your deck is screwed from the beginning. If Purity nuked the Hordes most powerfull unit, that would be one thing, but unless the card destroys nearly everything you have on the table then thee is no comparison whatsoever. I don't see how anybody can even remotely make any kind of comparison between the two. >I've had my side of the board cleared by Dragon dueling. Did he use one single spell to do it, and did it destroy all you holdings as well? No? Didn't think so, again, you are comparing Apples to Oranges, somebody breaking out 3 Iajatsu Duels, a couple of Steel on Steels and a natural Duel is a world of differance than casting one spell and destroying all your personalities, followers, items, and holdings. >I had the >cards in hand to destroy the unit, i just needed a peep to stay in play till >my turn, never happend. Scorpion kauk honor bomb kills many a clan dead in >a hurry with the right combo. And there is the word... combo, they need the right combo out, and Kaukatsu is a 1 chi unique that if you get rid of him, the combo is ruined, any shuggie's can be used to drop purity, there is no Golden Bullet there. Again, there is no realistic comparison between the two. >In many cases SLH can kill more peeps than >any other clan, that being said, purity isnt that big a deal. Your >certainly not going to see it out of Crab, Ratling, HoT, Lion, Mantis and Saw it out of HoT a couple times, and have seen it in a Mantis Deck (thankfully I was playing Unicorn at the time at a local store tourney) but he had it and he used it on another player. Never seen Ratling use it, but I have heard of it used in a Lion deck (but didn't witness it myself.) >other SLH decks at least not highly competitive ones. Thats about half if >not more of the deck types you would meet in an event. Like I said, it's obvious you were not at Region 2, people were climbing all over themselves to add in Purity, and the second place deck overall had purity in his deck, I'd say he was pretty competative. >Its not that bad, would you prefer iris festival instead? Oh, okay, since another card is even worse, then that means that Purity isn't bad? Do I even need to begin to point out the flaw in this argument? "So what, you just lost your hand in a farm accident, at least it wasn't your entire arm! Suck it up ya whiney snot!" Ummmmm, yeah. _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From tkdyanni at ameritech.net Fri Jul 2 02:17:40 2004 From: tkdyanni at ameritech.net (jon) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:17:40 -0700 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Jeff, Marty] Rules Q Message-ID: <000a01c45ffc$4d9c4220$f035fea9@v2z1v1> Found a MRP that brought up a question at our last tourney. My opponent has multiple units defending at a provience, he plays come one at a time. Now according to the DE MRP he can play the terrain regardless of total units. COAAT grants the players the ability to send one of their units home bowed as a battle action. Is this ability able to be used when there is *only* one defender, or can it still be used when there are multiple defending units? Thanks, Jon --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.713 / Virus Database: 469 - Release Date: 6/30/04 _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kenneth.wright at mirant.com Fri Jul 2 00:42:47 2004 From: kenneth.wright at mirant.com (Wright, Kenneth) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:42:47 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? Message-ID: <2D321821BDADF341AFEA6ECB1EA2DBFE07250B@ATLEXMS02.na.mirant.net> -----Original Message----- From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com]On Behalf Of Darrin Clough Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:22 PM To: l5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? >In all serious, there are a few things that don't >quite make much sense mechanically, but exist for >balance. The SLH already has a lot of advantages >which make them immune to many iaijutsu and political >actions. Really? Immune to Iajutsu actions? Like what? Remember, a dishonoed Shadowlands personality can be eliminated or screwed with just as easily as a non-SL personality our Samurais can be remorsefull seppukue'd(new word) just as easily as non-SL Samurai, and the only political actions that don't effect the orde are honor loss ones, every other Political Action that I can think of screws with the Horde just as easily. Political actions you can still use while playing against the horde include: A New Guardian, Accept With Honor, Aramasu's Ashes, Battlefield of Shallow Graves, Bloodied Ground, Bonds of Fate, Defend Your Master, Dismissed, Failure of Duty, Field of Glorious Slaughter, Gempukku, Gold Buys Security, Honor's Cost, Hospitality, I Believed in You, Ignominious End, Imperial Edicts, Imperial Proclamation, Inspired Troops, Lesser of Two Evils, Mastermind, Open Warfare, Outmaneuvered by Force, Outmaneuvered in Court, Political Distraction, Political Entanglements, Political Interference, Quarantined, Return for Training, Scrutiny's Sweet Sting, Show of Good Faith, Stern Reprimand, Storm Heart, Strange Alliance, Superior Stance,The Four Winds March, The Price of Innocence, The Time Is Not Right, Time to Pay the Price, Treachery, Unrequited Love, We Know. So 42 out of the 60 Diamond Legal Political actions can have a negative effect on your SLH opponent. I didn't include cards that only caused honor loss or could have their effects essentially negated by taking only an honor loss. Out of the Iajitsu Actions every single one of them Iaj Lesson, Iaj Challenge, Show me Your Stance, Stand or Run, and Steel on Steel are all effective against SLH... if I'm missing an Iajitsu action, please let me know, my dueling deck could use a boost. >Making the SLH immune to ALL Iaijutsu and / >or Political actions as well as possibly making them >unable to be dishonored, would just make the SLH even >more dominate since they would be immune to even more >aspects of the game. I don't think that anybody is suggesting making SLH immune to Iajutsu or Political actions, at least I know that I'm not. Quite frankly, I think the current limitations on SLH are very balanced with their benefits right now. I'm meerely arguing that a game that is built on strategy and balance has no place for a card like Purity of the Seven Thunders, thats all I'm saying. To hear some of the others talk though you'd think that the Horde has won a dozen Kotei's and is sweeping tourneys and that the only thing standing between Rokugan and Jigoku is POT7T. _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From beattyr2003 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 01:06:42 2004 From: beattyr2003 at earthlink.net (Robert Beatty) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 01:06:42 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why complain? References: <2D321821BDADF341AFEA6ECB1EA2DBFE07250A@ATLEXMS02.na.mirant.net> Message-ID: <007001c45ff2$613bcd50$6c8979a5@DFDWZP21> Its not that bad, would you prefer iris festival instead? Oh, okay, since another card is even worse, then that means that Purity isn't bad? Do I even need to begin to point out the flaw in this argument? "So what, you just lost your hand in a farm accident, at least it wasn't your entire arm! Suck it up ya whiney snot!" Ummmmm, yeah. Yep i see why jeff issued a warning on this... The SAME arguement was bandied about during Gold. It wasnt a real problem for SLH then and I truly dont think its a problem now either. Apples oranges bannas, doesnt really matter if you got the whole fruit basket there, I stand by my statement that at least half the field doesnt use shugejna which cuts down on the times you see this card. Bayushi Daremo Scorpion Clan *Ninja* Samurai Troublemaker Shadowed Tower *Bloodspeaker* _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From jkkotz at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 01:33:13 2004 From: jkkotz at yahoo.com (James Kotz) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? In-Reply-To: <003e01c45fd0$4df1e030$b680fea9@your4di1s53ime> Message-ID: <20040702053313.93853.qmail@web21403.mail.yahoo.com> You are making an incorrect assumption. Oni does not equate to stupid. Off the top of my head The Maw and Kyoso no Oni are noted for thier intelligence. And while ignoring an Oni Lord's challenge and gathering an army is indeed the smart thing to do, it is far from honorable. The Clans have to play by their own rules, even while the Shadowlands ignores those same rules at will. So refusing a challenge is dishonorable, regardless of who it is from. Thematically, it's the Shadowlands who should be able to ignore any challenge based on social convention. Unless you can think of a logical reason why Iuchiban/Tsuburu no Oni/Random Goblin #42 would stand against a master duelist instead of casting a spell or continuing to rabidly attack said duelist? Why whould they play thier opponent's game, when they know they have an advantage in another arena? Or in the goblin's case, they know very little at all, much less how to stop attacking, assume a duelling stance, etc etc etc. On that note, I'd agree that goblins and lesser oni shouldn't be able to issue challenges, but the smarter SL guys should be able to. Now if only there was a simple way to mark that on the cards without taking up much space... there lies the problem. And the fact that L5R is complicated enough as it is. Ken Shaw wrote: I have never gotten this at all. How could the Maw possibly challenge a human samurai to a iajitsu duel? If the Maw shows up talking smack the honorable thing to do is go gather up an army and send it back to Jigoku not try and out fast draw the thing. Thematically at least iajitsu duels should be limited to humans and perhaps naga and ratlings. Ken --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From baguiotrade at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 01:40:08 2004 From: baguiotrade at yahoo.com (Raffel Dean Hidalgo) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Jeff, Marty] Rules Q In-Reply-To: <000a01c45ffc$4d9c4220$f035fea9@v2z1v1> Message-ID: <20040702054008.47970.qmail@web50808.mail.yahoo.com> Immediate Terrain Battle: While there is only one defending Personality, that Personality may, as a Battle action, issue an unrefusable challenge to an opposing Personality, and each player may, as a Battle action, send one of his or her bowed or unbowed attacking units home bowed. The defending Personality, if there is one, may take one such challenge action immediately after this Terrain is played. based on above, would it not be logical to say that the capability is not granted to the attackers if the ability for the defender is not granted also? --- jon wrote: > > Found a MRP that brought up a question at our last > tourney. > > My opponent has multiple units defending at a > provience, he plays come one at a time. Now > according to the DE MRP he can play the terrain > regardless of total units. COAAT grants the players > the ability to send one of their units home bowed as > a battle action. Is this ability able to be used > when there is *only* one defender, or can it still > be used when there are multiple defending units? > > Thanks, > Jon > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system > (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.713 / Virus Database: 469 - Release > Date: 6/30/04 > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From fraganhome at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 01:58:12 2004 From: fraganhome at earthlink.net (The Frank/Egan House) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:58:12 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: Why Purity? In-Reply-To: <200407012233.1bGgFN3CD3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: > On that note, I'd agree that goblins and lesser oni shouldn't be able to issue > challenges, but the smarter SL guys should be able to. Now if only there was > a simple way to mark that on the cards without taking up much space... there > lies the problem. And the fact that L5R is complicated enough as it is. So we add a new trait to some cards: Smarter than a Goblin (oni/etc.) Only things with the Smarter than (x) trait can do challenges/political actions/etc. Or not. -- Bayushi Taiga Scorpion Clan Samurai * Ninja * Demolitionist "Shadowed Tower? What Shadowed Tower? You mean this unmarked pile of rubble?" _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kenneth.wright at mirant.com Fri Jul 2 02:07:02 2004 From: kenneth.wright at mirant.com (Wright, Kenneth) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 02:07:02 -0400 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: Why Purity? Message-ID: <2D321821BDADF341AFEA6ECB1EA2DBFE3F6254@ATLEXMS02.na.mirant.net> *snorts, then cleans the soda off the monitor* Okay, I'll admit... thats funny. ;D But yeah, this conversation has definately gotten way off track here, so I'm stepping back and pulling out of it. I think that a very valid argument has been made to remove Purity (or at least MRP it) in Lotus by several people here and the design team (or at least Jeff) has seen that argument made. Hopefully they will do the right thing when the time comes and NO faction will have to deal with a rediculous card like that in the upcoming arc. -----Original Message----- From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com]On Behalf Of The Frank/Egan House Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 10:58 PM To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: Why Purity? > On that note, I'd agree that goblins and lesser oni shouldn't be able to issue > challenges, but the smarter SL guys should be able to. Now if only there was > a simple way to mark that on the cards without taking up much space... there > lies the problem. And the fact that L5R is complicated enough as it is. So we add a new trait to some cards: Smarter than a Goblin (oni/etc.) Only things with the Smarter than (x) trait can do challenges/political actions/etc. Or not. -- Bayushi Taiga Scorpion Clan Samurai * Ninja * Demolitionist "Shadowed Tower? What Shadowed Tower? You mean this unmarked pile of rubble?" _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From otaku_rotsuken at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 2 02:25:44 2004 From: otaku_rotsuken at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Piotr=20Kapis?=) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:25:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? In-Reply-To: <2D321821BDADF341AFEA6ECB1EA2DBFE072509@ATLEXMS02.na.mirant.net> Message-ID: <20040702062544.6704.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> "Wright, Kenneth" wrote: > True, if they made it so oni's couldn't issue challanges, then yeah, I > could dig that even. But Daigotsu Toru (Human Samurai) or Kyofu > (Onisu in a samurai's body, non human, but close enough that it > makes sence)should definately be able to issue Iajitsu Duels, but I can > agree that Oni's are so inhuman (except for Ickybums himself) that it > does seem a little silly. Well, we have a very good example of shadowlands personality issuing challenge to a human personality in Gold Edition Rulebook. One of the Onisu challenges Toturi, who doesn't even considers refusing. If he did, he would be honorless. On the other hand Outmaneuvered in Court should be political action. It requires using of courtiers, and clearly whole thing happens in court. Otaku Rotsuken --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From GojuKaze at wanadoo.fr Fri Jul 2 02:28:16 2004 From: GojuKaze at wanadoo.fr (Goju Kaze) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:28:16 +0200 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? References: <20040702062544.6704.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002b01c45ffd$c2c39a20$0a321d0a@marmotte> Actually, OiC IS a political action.... Goju Kaze ----- Original Message ----- From: "Piotr Kapis" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 8:25 AM Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Why Purity? > "Wright, Kenneth" wrote: > > > True, if they made it so oni's couldn't issue challanges, then yeah, I > > could dig that even. But Daigotsu Toru (Human Samurai) or Kyofu > > (Onisu in a samurai's body, non human, but close enough that it > > makes sence)should definately be able to issue Iajitsu Duels, but I can > > agree that Oni's are so inhuman (except for Ickybums himself) that it > > does seem a little silly. > > Well, we have a very good example of shadowlands personality issuing challenge to a human personality in Gold Edition Rulebook. One of the Onisu challenges Toturi, who doesn't even considers refusing. If he did, he would be honorless. > On the other hand Outmaneuvered in Court should be political action. It requires using of courtiers, and clearly whole thing happens in court. > > Otaku Rotsuken > > > --------------------------------- > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From moosi at paradise.net.nz Fri Jul 2 02:42:26 2004 From: moosi at paradise.net.nz (Mark Williams) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:42:26 +1200 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Jeff, Marty] Rules Q In-Reply-To: <0I070090CMF7FN@linda-3.paradise.net.nz> References: <0I070090CMF7FN@linda-3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20040702183906.01d3ca80@pop3.paradise.net.nz> OK, text from Come One at a Time: Immediate Terrain Battle: While there is only one defending Personality, that Personality may, as a Battle action, issue an unrefusable challenge to an opposing Personality, and each player may, as a Battle action, send one of his or her bowed or unbowed attacking units home bowed. The defending Personality, if there is one, may take one such challenge action immediately after this Terrain is played. The Defender can play it when they have more than one unit, but I don't see how they can send their units home, since the card states : "each player may, as a Battle action, send one of his or her bowed or unbowed attacking units home bowed" The defenders units are not attacking, and therefore may not use this action. The duel can only be used if there is one defending personality. Maybe I'm missing something in your question, but it does seem to be a simple RTFC question :) >Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:17:40 -0700 >From: "jon" >Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Jeff, Marty] Rules Q >To: >Message-ID: <000a01c45ffc$4d9c4220$f035fea9 at v2z1v1> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >Found a MRP that brought up a question at our last tourney. > >My opponent has multiple units defending at a provience, he plays come one >at a time. Now according to the DE MRP he can play the terrain regardless >of total units. COAAT grants the players the ability to send one of their >units home bowed as a battle action. Is this ability able to be used when >there is *only* one defender, or can it still be used when there are >multiple defending units? > >Thanks, >Jon _________________