From jalexander at alderac.com Tue Feb 1 00:09:16 2005 From: jalexander at alderac.com (Jeff Alexander) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:09:16 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules team, take a look] Uso Sensei and the Rules should work logically dangit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >OK... here's my biggest beef with this game. The game is baised on >a roll playing game. This is where the faction abilities, card >ideas, and general feel of the world come from. This being said, I >believe that the rules team should take theme into account more. Please allow me to respectfully disagree with you. The CCG is not actually based on the role-playing game. Both are based on the fanciful world of Rokugan and the warfare and politics that occur there. But the CCG is not trying to be a perfect simulation in every way. The complexity that would have to be worked into the rules to achieve that is prohibitive. (They are already overflowing with little rules to this effect, such as "Undead cards are immune to Fear". These are often forgotten or overlooked. They have even had some taken out, like "Shugenja cannot attach more Spells than their Chi.") Furthermore, the cards interact with one another in, literally, millions of ways. Ensuring that every single combination produces realistic results is just not possible. The Rules Team's responsibility is to answer questions based on written card and rulebook text first and foremost, as well as past precedent and situations involving other cards with similar wordings. They deliberately ignore intent unless ambiguity is a card's only problem, and they ignore tournament standings. That is what we've found from experience works best at achieving objective results, and that's what we've found from experience is the best results to try for. Issuing rulings based on original intent and by taking theme into account were done heavily in the game's initial years. It's a mistake we're still paying for with incorrect entries and outdated reasonings in the ruling archive, with badly-phrased and inconsistent lines in the rulebook, and with cards whose exact wordings break down under scrutiny (but that players, even top-level, highly analytical ones, nonetheless play correctly for years!). > >When people find card combos that don't make logical sense, like >guys dying twice or like Yu working after raid battles, our true and >faithful rules team should look at those combos and say "Hum... >that's not right. Maybe we should plug that hole." rather than say >"Yep! there's a hole! you found it!" What if it isn't a hole at all? One player's abuse is another's combo. Separating the two is an entirely subjective call. It's exactly the kind of thing the Rules Team avoids doing. Take the rules for Yu. The Yu effect triggers upon losing a battle, not upon cards with Yu dying. Why is that? A couple reasons: 1. If it triggered off cards with Yu dying, players would then ask, "Why can't I use it when a Personality dies in the middle of battle from a duel or ranged attack?" And the answer would still be "Because the rules say so," which is no improvement over your complaint on the current situation. And based on other factors at the time, we (meaning Wizards of the Coast and I at the time) did not want to forestall this question by *letting* Yu work on any death at any time during a battle. That would have made it stronger than we wanted it. 2. If it triggered off cards with Yu dying, would it happen before, when, or after they die? Well, "after" is bad because those cards are now no longer technically in the battle or even in cohesive units, and you'd be working retroactively based on how things were arranged before they died. "When" is bad because there is no reason to add more simultaneity to a CCG if it can be avoided. So that leaves "before". Now, that could have worked...but now is it a Reaction, or is it like seppuku, where it has the timing of a Reaction but isn't actually an action? Both have issues. Wouldn't it be cleaner overall if Yu just had its own step? The end result: rules that let someone with the Yu trait "take someone with him" even when he isn't going to die himself. Was it the right call to implement the rules that way? At the time: yes. It had the fewest mechanical and balance issues, and the first useful card that "abused" this definition was still nine months in the future (Pick Your Battles, in 1,000 Years of Darkness). Was it the right call for the Rules Team to rule that Yu can destroy cards during raid battles? Yes. That answer is a direct result of what's written in the rulebook and on Aramasu's Pride. The way Yu works has been the basis of consistent rulings, card designs, and entire deck strategies for three years running. Those are even more reasons why the Rules Team should not change their ruling stance because one rule viewed in isolation produces unintuitive results, and why the Design Team cannot simply change the actual rules the next time we print an expansion. (Personally, I think the best solution would be to change is the flavorful description of Yu. Not every conceptual disconnection between mechanics and story has to be fixed by changing mechanics. It is certainly an act of heroic courage to go to a battle considering everything that might happen to you by the time it finishes, regardless of whether you'd be safe at the end!) > >I'm greatful the rules team is so quick about getting back to us >with rulings and all, and on the whole you are doing a great job, >but I do feel like you guys are being rather rude about this. I >don't appreciate asking fair questions about game vaguarities, and >having the rules team reply like I'm stupid. If you have any particulars, please forward them to me, or to the original Rules Team member with a CC to me. I have no outgoing personal mail to your address, so I'm not sure if you're referring to private responses from someone else or to Marty's daily answers. -- Jeff Alexander Lead Designer, L5R CCG Alderac Entertainment Group _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From isawaletomo at juno.com Tue Feb 1 02:26:47 2005 From: isawaletomo at juno.com (Lee T Boswell) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:26:47 -0700 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Ningen/City of Blood Ques? [RULES] Message-ID: <20050201.002648.19628.10.isawaletomo@juno.com> Can Shiba Ningen use his ability to discard a card just drawn with the City of Blood's ability? Ningen says "Draw", while the City of Blood specifically says to "put the card in your hand". Is that different than a draw? Thanks! Isawa Letomo Phoenix Clan Librarian * Shugenja Lee Boswell BH# 1474 _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From jalexander at alderac.com Tue Feb 1 02:38:53 2005 From: jalexander at alderac.com (Jeff Alexander) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:38:53 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [OFFICIAL] Watch List/Errata Update for February 1st, 2005 Message-ID: As part of the never-ending process of improving the L5R CCG tournaments as competitive events, AEG is announcing the creation of a formal Watch List of cards we feel may be unduly influencing the play environment. This list will be updated monthly, with all cards on it eventually either being removed from the Watch List or receiving balancing errata once we have had time to ascertain the card's true status. Such errata will also be announced monthly, and will typically have a one month lead time before any goes into effect. The following cards are being removed from the Watch List: Utaku Tarako Yoritomo Tokaro Blade of Penance Asahina Nizomi (That is, all cards currently on the List.) None of these cards were found to have noticeable impact on the competitive L5R environment, and no changes could be found to these cards that would benefit the casual environment enough to justify errata. As a side result of Yoritomo Tokaro and similar cards from Web of Lies, however, we have decided to discontinue use of the term "unopposed" in all future L5R expansions. Currently, the Design Team is keeping close watch on the following Web of Lies Personality: Doji Saori Saori has an ability to issue a challenge that cannot be prepared against by general anti-destruction metagame cards, that has consequences for losing that her own player can ignore, that can be used during battles without putting herself at risk, and that is relatively easy to use multiple times in one turn. She is also Lotus-legal, so her strength is an issue as it will impact the design of dueling-related cards for the entire upcoming environment. -- Jeff Alexander Lead Designer, L5R CCG Alderac Entertainment Group _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From oldgeorge at myrealbox.com Tue Feb 1 01:50:51 2005 From: oldgeorge at myrealbox.com (Chris Oldgeorge) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:50:51 +0200 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Shoshuro Saemon and Consecutive Ranged Attacks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c5082a$5ed0d480$d98c263e@thechurch> Uhm, this has caused quite a hearty discussion in the greek l5r boards. Assuming that Saemon is unbowed and ready to react to all evil things coming his way, if an action that produces multiple ranged attacks targets him (e.g. Kuro's Fire) multiple times can he keep generating tokens to save himself or he can only react once since it's one action with multiple effects? Also, if Shoshuro Osamito is unbowed and has a Yumi of Fire attached, if I discard a card to make a ranged 3 attack without bowing, can I then bow him to combine the ranged 3 with one of the attacks from the Yumi? _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From henry.hemming at phreaker.net Tue Feb 1 04:02:30 2005 From: henry.hemming at phreaker.net (Henry Hemming) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:02:30 +0200 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [OFFICIAL] Watch List/Errata Update for February 1st, 2005 References: Message-ID: <146001c5083c$c359cf30$1bd68e3e@tanitsu> Just a brief comment on this. I recently played in a local tournament with a crane deck, in one game I went over 40 honor on turn 3, and in another I went over 48 honor on turn 4 with strange assembly in play. With the exception of mantis and maybe another duel deck, all games end around turn 4-5. And I would like to point out that the deck doesnt care about Saori, she is just another duelist but nothing that important, and Tamura is not included in the deck at all. The deck can reliably jump to 40-50 honor the turn it has a duelist (10 in the deck) and one other personality (any personality will do) in play. Our local environment is all twisted around the crane duel deck, which is the reason why mantis is doing so well, it seems to be that no other clan has a good chance of beating a crane duel. Here is an early version of the deck. http://www.thecraneclan.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1615&sid=222c3f5d84cf34ccd4465df7a24b53fc The problem is that there is no really effective meta, The Same Old Tricks doesnt work, Kharmaic has a relatively low probability of stopping the deck. Non the less, this is the very same reason you have put Saori on the watch list, lack of meta against it. I was expecting/hoping that blade of penance would be errated, so that duels would provide good support, but not the means to win. And Nizomi to level the playing field between duel decks. But no.. The Same Old Tricks : http://www.ccgexchange.com/?CardID=4084967222588789760&VersionID=5077074001426198528 Blade of Penance : http://www.ccgexchange.com/?CardID=8093927478256530432&VersionID=5648073784434982912 Asahina Nizomi : http://www.ccgexchange.com/?CardID=5817413015430201344&VersionID=926024663805279232 Khmaric Strike : http://www.ccgexchange.com/?CardID=5709951692580390912&VersionID=8546164572111104000 Doji Saori : http://www.ccgexchange.com/?CardID=8454806844059363328&VersionID=510209868460863488 -typo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Alexander" To: Sent: Tuesday, 01 February, 2005 9:38 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [OFFICIAL] Watch List/Errata Update for February 1st, 2005 > As part of the never-ending process of improving the L5R CCG tournaments > as competitive events, AEG is announcing the creation of a formal Watch > List of cards we feel may be unduly influencing the play environment. This > list will be updated monthly, with all cards on it eventually either being > removed from the Watch List or receiving balancing errata once we have had > time to ascertain the card's true status. Such errata will also be > announced monthly, and will typically have a one month lead time before > any goes into effect. > > The following cards are being removed from the Watch List: > > Utaku Tarako > Yoritomo Tokaro > Blade of Penance > Asahina Nizomi > > (That is, all cards currently on the List.) > > None of these cards were found to have noticeable impact on the > competitive L5R environment, and no changes could be found to these cards > that would benefit the casual environment enough to justify errata. > > As a side result of Yoritomo Tokaro and similar cards from Web of Lies, > however, we have decided to discontinue use of the term "unopposed" in all > future L5R expansions. > > > Currently, the Design Team is keeping close watch on the following Web of > Lies Personality: > > Doji Saori > > Saori has an ability to issue a challenge that cannot be prepared against > by general anti-destruction metagame cards, that has consequences for > losing that her own player can ignore, that can be used during battles > without putting herself at risk, and that is relatively easy to use > multiple times in one turn. She is also Lotus-legal, so her strength is > an issue as it will impact the design of dueling-related cards for the > entire upcoming environment. > > -- > Jeff Alexander > Lead Designer, L5R CCG > Alderac Entertainment Group > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From s_vrettakos at acn.gr Tue Feb 1 06:24:43 2005 From: s_vrettakos at acn.gr (sarandis vrettakos) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:24:43 +0200 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Suitengu's Surge questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007201c50850$abf51a20$552e05d5@user5hkca89uul> Suitengu's surge only protects against actions.Occult murders is an event,not an action. Sarandis Vrettakos Isawa Kenshi Phoenix Clan Acolyte of Air -----Original Message----- From: James Lyvers [mailto:lyversj at bellsouth.net] Sent: ?????, 1 ??????????? 2005 4:41 ?? To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] Suitengu's Surge questions since no one else has responded...basically surge triggers off of targeting, the before only helps place it relative to other actions that trigger off of targeting. Once targeting is choosen even if the target is surged you don't get to retarget the effect, basically the effects pointed at the surged target fail, because it is no longer in play to be affected by the effects. Unless those effects say they can effect targets not in the game. (I believe right now Surge and Make a Wish are the only cards that do this) As for Occult murders, it targets. It falls under the old templating, which defines targeting as "when you might sometimes have to choose what recieves the effect then it's a targeted effect" rule. So it can be surged. All the other instances fall into the "we get our effects negated, because our target disapeared." category of interaction with surge. Akodo James (who's Kolat assassin is still trying to figure why he needs to understand astrophysics to make a wormhole so he can get his target over and done with in a fantasy setting, grumble, grumble, grumble... at least the local rats haven't started using it to turbo the horde, oh wait I was wrong....) -----Original Message----- From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com]On Behalf Of Mark Klein Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 10:25 AM To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: [L5R-CCG] Suitengu's Surge questions OK, I am using this card in a deck and I need to know how it interact's with actions. Sorry if this has already been covered. Occult Murder's: Surge should not even work with this card correct? Price of Power: This should work, but what happens? Say its my Price of Power and I target my guy who has the surge on him, I react with the surge. What happens now? do I continue the action based on the guy I tried to target, or do I now have to choose another of my personalities? Kolat Assassin: my opponent try's to target one of my guys, I surge, does my opponent now get a chance to target someone else? I am basically confused about the whole "Before an action targets a unit" and then what happens to the action after the targeting fails....... Suitengu's Surge Reaction: Before an action targets a unit you control, bow this Shugenja: Remove the unit from the game. Return it to the game, with all attached cards and tokens, before the beginning of the next turn. -- Mark Klein Graphic Designer Print Time E.P.P. _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From newtonmm at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 08:34:55 2005 From: newtonmm at yahoo.com (Newton-BH) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 05:34:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Looking for players In-Reply-To: <20050131224201.59761.qmail@web52210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050201133455.29477.qmail@web41722.mail.yahoo.com> You could look to store making storylines and official tornaments near to you. In such events that happens almost weekly you could find players to play with. You live near NY so i think it won't be very difficult. Trying to find players here next to you will be hard becouse it's only a few people that see this list. P.S. Man?! Daniel wrote: Hi, I moved to Elizabeth, NJ last weekend and I'm looking for L5R players in that region to play. I'm crazy to play, cause has 2 months since I arrived here that I don't play and I need to practice to Kotei. Please email me, all players.. I don't have a phone now but probably in next week I'll buy one. THanks Daniel Jardim MSN: danieljardim at yahoo.com Daniel Jardim --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From mklein at printtime.com Tue Feb 1 09:04:54 2005 From: mklein at printtime.com (Mark Klein) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:04:54 -0600 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Suitengu's Surge questions In-Reply-To: <007201c50850$abf51a20$552e05d5@user5hkca89uul> References: <007201c50850$abf51a20$552e05d5@user5hkca89uul> Message-ID: Thanks for the response. It was how I thought so thats good...... -- Mark Klein Graphic Designer Print Time E.P.P. _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kschafer at nazarenefoundation.org Tue Feb 1 09:20:03 2005 From: kschafer at nazarenefoundation.org (Kevin Schafer) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:20:03 -0600 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [OFFICIAL] Watch List/Errata Update for February 1st, 2005 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050201142037.C750B4038D@omta18.mta.everyone.net> I really appreciate having the reasoning listed as well as what's happening. Great job of communication. Kevin Schafer > > As part of the never-ending process of improving the L5R CCG > tournaments as competitive events, AEG is announcing the creation of > a formal Watch List of cards we feel may be unduly influencing the > play environment. This list will be updated monthly, with all cards > on it eventually either being removed from the Watch List or > receiving balancing errata once we have had time to ascertain the > card's true status. Such errata will also be announced monthly, and > will typically have a one month lead time before any goes into effect. > > The following cards are being removed from the Watch List: > > Utaku Tarako > Yoritomo Tokaro > Blade of Penance > Asahina Nizomi > > (That is, all cards currently on the List.) > > None of these cards were found to have noticeable impact on the > competitive L5R environment, and no changes could be found to these > cards that would benefit the casual environment enough to justify > errata. > > As a side result of Yoritomo Tokaro and similar cards from Web of > Lies, however, we have decided to discontinue use of the term > "unopposed" in all future L5R expansions. > > > Currently, the Design Team is keeping close watch on the following > Web of Lies Personality: > > Doji Saori > > Saori has an ability to issue a challenge that cannot be prepared > against by general anti-destruction metagame cards, that has > consequences for losing that her own player can ignore, that can be > used during battles without putting herself at risk, and that is > relatively easy to use multiple times in one turn. She is also > Lotus-legal, so her strength is an issue as it will impact the design > of dueling-related cards for the entire upcoming environment. > > -- > Jeff Alexander > Lead Designer, L5R CCG > Alderac Entertainment Group > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From lyversj at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 1 09:22:29 2005 From: lyversj at bellsouth.net (James Lyvers) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:22:29 -0500 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Suitengu's Surge questions In-Reply-To: <9e.1f207e0b.2f304cd0@aol.com> Message-ID: Fair enough, I did not have a copy in front of me when I answered. Just goes to show RT!C mostly the cards are right. Akodo James -----Original Message----- From: L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com [mailto:L5r-ccg-bounces at alderac.com]On Behalf Of Whitecat31 at aol.com Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 10:09 PM To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com Subject: Re: [L5R-CCG] Suitengu's Surge questions In a message dated 1/31/2005 6:51:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, lyversj at bellsouth.net writes: As for Occult murders, it targets. It falls under the old templating, which defines targeting as "when you might sometimes have to choose what recieves the effect then it's a targeted effect" rule. So it can be surged. Occult Murders is not an Action. It is an event. Surge is triggered off an action. So because it is an event, I believe it can not be surged. David Starr Whitecat31 GAB Vice-Admiral in the Golden Koku Team _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From Kirbdog53 at aol.com Tue Feb 1 09:42:09 2005 From: Kirbdog53 at aol.com (Kirbdog53 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:42:09 EST Subject: [L5R-CCG] Rules Message-ID: <1ed.3492bdb7.2f30ef41@aol.com> Can you play "Wear Him Down" twice in the same duel? Moto Gahrie _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From Kirbdog53 at aol.com Tue Feb 1 09:46:30 2005 From: Kirbdog53 at aol.com (Kirbdog53 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:46:30 EST Subject: [L5R-CCG] FUN? Message-ID: For about the 20th time in my last 40 games last night, none of my Personalities survived until my straighten phase the turn after I bought them. And that includes turns where I bought three Personalities. That's really not all that fun. The only things I did on my turn in any of those games were actions on my Regions, and buy Holdings and Personalities. Control is a bit strong right now. Moto Gahrie _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From shinjojon at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 09:55:02 2005 From: shinjojon at gmail.com (Jonathan Freeman) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:55:02 -0500 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Double Koku? Message-ID: <30ee77db050201065543a9407e@mail.gmail.com> What's "Double Koku Month"? I turn over my handy-dandy L5R calandar and see that February is "Double Koku Month" So, what gives? :) Jonathan Freeman _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From Whitecat31 at aol.com Tue Feb 1 10:15:39 2005 From: Whitecat31 at aol.com (Whitecat31 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:15:39 EST Subject: [L5R-CCG] FUN? Message-ID: <12f.55dae5e9.2f30f71b@aol.com> In a message dated 2/1/2005 6:47:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, Kirbdog53 at aol.com writes: > For about the 20th time in my last 40 games last night, none of my > Personalities survived until my straighten phase the turn after I bought > them. And > that includes turns where I bought three Personalities. > > That's really not all that fun. The only things I did on my turn in any of > those games were actions on my Regions, and buy Holdings and Personalities. > > Control is a bit strong right now. > > Moto Gahrie > Well Gary, I would suggest changes to your deck. Feel free to email your deck, or post it to the list. David _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From zfaulkes at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 1 10:33:10 2005 From: zfaulkes at sbcglobal.net (Zen Faulkes) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:33:10 -0600 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: Quick Question Message-ID: <41FFA136.4090605@sbcglobal.net> reetings, From: Mr Jacob Cassens Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: Quick Question (Aaron Davis) > First major change is to not read this list until you're comfortable > with the game again, because the way rules change on this thing, > you'll never know if you're coming or going. Second, wait until > Lotus edition, or else drive yourself mad while trying to figure out > what the heck happened. If you're still confused, take a look at > Zen's accumulated rulings, and after you spend three years reading > all the rules, their reversals, and the reversals of the reversals, > not to mention the reversals of the reversals of the reversals, and > learning how to predict designer intent, and um... yeah just wait > till Lotus. Because I am interested in constantly improving how to distribute rulings, I would like to know specifically what reversals you are referring to. Because I count 5 and half (one's a partial reversal) in the Archive for *all* of 2004 and 2005 so far. ;;;;; From: "dustin howard" Subject: Re: [L5R-CCG] [Rules team, take a look] Uso Sensei and the Rulesshould work logically dangit > And the common reply is that the accumulated rulings can be easily searched > with Control-F. Nevertheless, the desire for a Google-style search for rulings has not fallen on deaf ears. But it's a difficult thing to do. Zen Faulkes! * Crab Clan Scholar * Unaligned Archivist _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From esteiger at alderac.com Tue Feb 1 12:17:17 2005 From: esteiger at alderac.com (Eric Steiger) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:17:17 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Double Koku Month In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some of you may have noticed on your L5R Calendars that February is "Double Koku Month." What does this mean? It means your koku is worth double during February! All koku orders postmarked between Feb. 1 & Feb. 28 will receive twice the normal amount of cards for koku. You may choose your extra cards from those available, or if you do not, I will choose at random for you. Note that all the normal rules for Koku still apply - you will still not receive more than 1 of any card, and selections are still limited by availability. Also, orders without a self-addressed stamped envelope (or IRC in lieu of stamps) will be given LOWEST priority. Any questions can be directed to me at fanclubs at alderac.com. Happy Double Koku Month! -- Sincerely, Eric Steiger AEG Fan Club Coordinator -------------------------------------------------------- 4045 E. Guasti Rd. #212 Ontario, CA 91761 Email: esteiger at alderac.com AIM: AEGEricS Phone: (909) 390-5444 ext. 145 Fax: (909) 390-5446 _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From jacovis at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 12:31:47 2005 From: jacovis at yahoo.com (Mr Jacob Cassens) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:31:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: L5r-ccg Digest, Vol 15, Issue 3 Message-ID: <20050201173147.19222.qmail@web30404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Zen Faulkes Wrote: >Because I am interested in constantly improving how >to distribute >rulings, I would like to know specifically what >reversals you are >referring to. Because I count 5 and half (one's a >partial reversal) in >the Archive for *all* of 2004 and 2005 so far. Zen, it was nothing personal, we all know you do a great job. It was more of a generalized, overexaggerated attempt to put light to the situation of the game's oh too many card-specific rulings, and to emphasize how much better Lotus is going to be (hopefully), including the dropping of the word "unopposed" for example :) Jacovis Unicorn Clan Punching Bag ===== "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss you'll land among the stars." -- Les Brown __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From IsawaAikune at aol.com Tue Feb 1 12:43:26 2005 From: IsawaAikune at aol.com (IsawaAikune at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:43:26 EST Subject: [L5R-CCG] Rules Question Message-ID: Okay if someone is attacking a player with two provinces, the attacker and the defender assign units to province A and no one assigns to province B. The attacker then decides to resolve province B first, which he tireless assaults a Maru from home to the province. Can the attacker use Maru's ability? _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From duchon.philippe at free.fr Tue Feb 1 14:23:34 2005 From: duchon.philippe at free.fr (Philippe Duchon) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:23:34 +0100 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules team, take a look] Uso Sensei and the Rules should work logical In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050201202334.24db9538.duchon.philippe@free.fr> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:00:29 -0500 "Quiet Corn" wrote: > At the risk of repeating myself, Crab Yu working against Raid battles. > In the diamond edition rulebook, it defines what YU is, in flavor terms > at the same time as it defines what it does as a game dynamic. With raid > battles, these two passages conflict each other. The ruling went with > the game dynamic, ignoring what Yu is supposed to be. The ruling went the only sensible way: rules define what happens, and forget about the "logic". Everybody has a different image of what the effects represent in "real world" terms, so there's no way it could work otherwise. -- Philippe Duchon -- duchon.philippe at free.fr Scorpion Clan Crypto-Geek _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From mfaafala at actewagl.net.au Tue Feb 1 15:08:12 2005 From: mfaafala at actewagl.net.au (Alex) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:08:12 +1100 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Rules Question (Maru) References: Message-ID: <002301c50899$c21dd280$5536fea9@FAMILYROOM> From: Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 4:43 AM Subject: [L5R-CCG] Rules Question > Okay if someone is attacking a player with two provinces, the attacker and > the defender assign units to province A and no one assigns to province B. > The > attacker then decides to resolve province B first, which he tireless > assaults > a Maru from home to the province. > > Can the attacker use Maru's ability? Yes - attacker has Presence (Maru) and action has Relevance (it bows Maru who's at the battle). Defender's choice whether to bow someone at Province A or someone at fief (if there's anyone there). Alex _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From jalexander at alderac.com Tue Feb 1 15:05:48 2005 From: jalexander at alderac.com (Jeff Alexander) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:05:48 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: Dishonored personlity involved in Honor gain... In-Reply-To: <003901c5087d$2d535f60$0100a8c0@magma.net> References: <003901c5087d$2d535f60$0100a8c0@magma.net> Message-ID: At 5:42 PM +0100 2/1/2005, wrote: >Hello. > >Rulebook states, that "Dishonored personality is restored to Honorable >status when it is involved in Honor gain" or "creates Honor for its >conotroller". What it means 'involved' or 'creates' in above sense ? Is it >equal to 'perfroms an action which results in a Honor gain', or something >more ? Something more. He is involved if he is instrumental in the gain in any way. He does not need to produce the gain directly. It does not need to come from an action. He DOES need to be involved in creating a gain, not modifying one. Playing Rhetoric to redirect an Honor gain from another player to yourself will not restore the performing Courtier to Honor. >Does Personality is involved in a Honor gain if : > >- is in an army which destroyed opposing army (yes, of course ?) Yes. [DE p. 87] >- wins duel which has 'winner gains X honor' effect (yes, of course ?) Yes. [ibid.] >- attaches a Follower / Item with 'gain X honor' effect (example : Celestial >Sword, Blessed Sword) Yes. >- participates in an Event effect that gives a Honor as a result (Selection >of Chancelor (JE) - controller of selected Personality gains 5 honor; Poetry >Contest - participants gain 1 honor, winner gains 3 honor [are both >participants and winner involved in honor gains ?]; Imperial Quest) Yes, yes, yes. >According to 'performance' rules, actions on a Follower/Item attached to a >Personality are performed by this Personality. Does a my Personality is >involved in a Honor gain if : >- action on a follower / item states 'pay X cost to : gain Y Honor' (example >: Ancestral Armor , Ancestral Sword ('bow if opposed to gain 2 Honor', 'bow >when entering a duel to gain 2 honor') For Items, yes. For Followers, no. Check the definition of "perform" again. Item and Spell actions are performed by their Personality. Follower actions are performed by the Follower. >If there is my 'Fields of Glorious Slaughter' battle terain in play (gain 2 >honor each time card you not control is destoryed in this battle) . Does a >my Personality is involved in a Honor gain if : >- makes a ranged attack that destroys opposing Follower / Personality >- performs a ranged attack that destroys opposing Follower / Personality >('perform' is not the same as 'make' as far as I know) >- kills another personality in duel (example : Steel on Steel) >- makes / performs another action that destroys another opposing card >(example : using Nezumi Technique to destroy an item) Yes. >When I have some Personalities destroyed while in a battle with Fields of >the Sun (Gain 2 Honor for each of your Personalities destroyed while at this >Province by an opponent's action or during battle resolution.) , does those >Personaliteias are involved by a honor gain ? Yes. >Is it possible to gain 0 honor for '0 honor gain' ? For example, Shinjo's >Courage gives you option to 'gain Honor equal to Personal Honor' - what if >Personality is dishonored : is he rehonored by 0 honor gain ? Or maybe a >honor gain HAS to be of at least 1 to 'exist' ? [ Of course amount of honor >gained may diifer , depending on other effects and reactions palyed; I'm >asking about the first, base honor ] Honor gains of 0 do exist. However, a gain of 0 will not restore a Personality to Honor. The gain must be at least 1 point to do that. [DE p. 87] >If Honor gain that started with an X > 0 is reduced to / below zero, is it >still considered a Honor gain and can rehonor Personality ? A gain cannot be reduced below 0. A gain that is reduced to 0 is still a gain -- it is not negated. -- Jeff Alexander Lead Designer, L5R CCG Alderac Entertainment Group _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From sascha.meyer at sdirekt-net.de Tue Feb 1 16:24:03 2005 From: sascha.meyer at sdirekt-net.de (Sascha Meyer) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:24:03 +0100 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES]Matsu Mieko + Rain of Death Message-ID: <20050201212252.E7F8B30DBC6@sally.dts-online.net> Matsu Mieko Battle: If Mieko is attacking in the current battle and opposed, once per battle, target any number of Personalities you control in your home that have not been in a battle during its resolution this attack. Move them to this battlefield. Cards you own may not target them until the battle ends. Rain of Death Center Formation Formed by 2 Personalities with the printed Tactician trait. Tactical Battle: Produce two consecutive Ranged 3 Attacks. Tactical Battle: Bow and destroy the performing Tactician: Target two cards opposing him that have no unbowed cards attached. Destroy them. May personalities (Tacticians) who moved in with Mieko's action be used for any action on Rain of Death? _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From l5rdemko at tampabay.rr.com Tue Feb 1 18:41:17 2005 From: l5rdemko at tampabay.rr.com (Hirumatsu Dem-kai) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:41:17 -0500 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Double Koku Month References: Message-ID: <007401c508b7$86626580$6801a8c0@demko> LOL, of course this is immediately after I sent my over 500 Koku off to the eBay factory to be sold for like a buck. :-P Hirumatsu Dem-kai Crab/Lion Clan Psycho Kitty * Tactician * Iuchiban's Personal Assistant a.k.a. Michael Demko Talking Monkey Games http://www.l5rsingles.com eBay ID: l5rsingles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Steiger" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:17 PM Subject: [L5R-CCG] Double Koku Month > Some of you may have noticed on your L5R Calendars that February is > "Double Koku Month." What does this mean? It means your koku is worth > double during February! > > All koku orders postmarked between Feb. 1 & Feb. 28 will receive twice the > normal amount of cards for koku. You may choose your extra cards from > those available, or if you do not, I will choose at random for you. Note > that all the normal rules for Koku still apply - you will still not > receive more than 1 of any card, and selections are still limited by > availability. Also, orders without a self-addressed stamped envelope (or > IRC in lieu of stamps) will be given LOWEST priority. > > Any questions can be directed to me at fanclubs at alderac.com. > > Happy Double Koku Month! > > -- > > > Sincerely, > > Eric Steiger > AEG Fan Club Coordinator > -------------------------------------------------------- > 4045 E. Guasti Rd. #212 > Ontario, CA 91761 > Email: esteiger at alderac.com > AIM: AEGEricS > Phone: (909) 390-5444 ext. 145 > Fax: (909) 390-5446 > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From k_tetsuko at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 19:11:27 2005 From: k_tetsuko at yahoo.com (Darrin Clough) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:11:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Khol Walls question Message-ID: <20050202001128.6647.qmail@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Posted for the benefit of a friend: Ive heard that when revealing during the end of events phase, Regions are discarded cause the can't attach and Events are because they cant resolve. And as you have an empty province you can refill it and reveal again. Is this true? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From Kirbdog53 at aol.com Tue Feb 1 20:25:04 2005 From: Kirbdog53 at aol.com (Kirbdog53 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:25:04 EST Subject: [L5R-CCG] FUN? Message-ID: <54.3cf93a21.2f3185f0@aol.com> In a message dated 2/1/2005 7:17:42 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, Whitecat31 at aol.com writes: I would suggest changes to your deck. Feel free to email your deck, or post it to the list. What changes would you suggest? Is a Personality-less deck viable in the current environment? Moto Gahrie _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From neil_g_phillips at yahoo.com.au Tue Feb 1 20:36:39 2005 From: neil_g_phillips at yahoo.com.au (NEil Phillips) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:36:39 +1100 (EST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] FUN? In-Reply-To: <54.3cf93a21.2f3185f0@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050202013639.95429.qmail@web52301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kirbdog53 at aol.com wrote: > What changes would you suggest? Is a > Personality-less deck viable in the > current environment? > > Moto Gahrie Sort of. Khol Wall Honour can be run personality-less, although it probably does better as an Honour/Dishonour hybrid with the Kaukatsu combo and Honour backup. ===== NEil Phillips (neil_g_phillips at yahoo.com.au) "Reality be Damned, Innocent Lives are at Stake!" The opinions expressed above are not my own, but rather are those of Microsoft Corporation. _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From nolian_wolfrider at hotmail.com Tue Feb 1 20:51:22 2005 From: nolian_wolfrider at hotmail.com (Ben Henderson) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:51:22 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Khol Walls question In-Reply-To: <20050202001128.6647.qmail@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nope, what happens to a region or event that is revealed after the events phase (a la Khol walls or something), it just takes up place and sits there looking pretty. You can discard the region or event if you want after during your end phase if you want, or you can wait for your events phase to roll around again so that it will then attach to your province if it's a region, or it will resolve, if it's an event. >From: Darrin Clough >Reply-To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com >To: L5R-CCG List >Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Khol Walls question >Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:11:27 -0800 (PST) > >Posted for the benefit of a friend: > >Ive heard that when revealing during the end of events >phase, Regions are discarded cause the can't attach >and Events are because they cant resolve. And as you >have an empty province you can refill it and reveal >again. > >Is this true? > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! >http://my.yahoo.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >L5r-ccg mailing list >L5r-ccg at alderac.com >http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From ginger.major at verizon.net Tue Feb 1 21:14:29 2005 From: ginger.major at verizon.net (G. Major) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:14:29 -0600 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Khol Walls question References: Message-ID: <000501c508cc$f073d200$6600a8c0@RAVEN> So what happens to personalities revealed this way? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Henderson" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:51 PM Subject: RE: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Khol Walls question > Nope, what happens to a region or event that is revealed after the events > phase (a la Khol walls or something), it just takes up place and sits there > looking pretty. You can discard the region or event if you want after > during your end phase if you want, or you can wait for your events phase to > roll around again so that it will then attach to your province if it's a > region, or it will resolve, if it's an event. > > >From: Darrin Clough > >Reply-To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com > >To: L5R-CCG List > >Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Khol Walls question > >Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:11:27 -0800 (PST) > > > >Posted for the benefit of a friend: > > > >Ive heard that when revealing during the end of events > >phase, Regions are discarded cause the can't attach > >and Events are because they cant resolve. And as you > >have an empty province you can refill it and reveal > >again. > > > >Is this true? > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! > >http://my.yahoo.com > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >L5r-ccg mailing list > >L5r-ccg at alderac.com > >http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From Whitecat31 at aol.com Tue Feb 1 22:07:24 2005 From: Whitecat31 at aol.com (Whitecat31 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:07:24 EST Subject: [L5R-CCG] FUN? Message-ID: <1f1.3467b418.2f319dec@aol.com> In a message dated 2/1/2005 5:27:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, Kirbdog53 at aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 2/1/2005 7:17:42 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > Whitecat31 at aol.com writes: > > I would suggest changes to your deck. Feel free to email your deck, or > post > > it to the list. > > > > What changes would you suggest? Is a Personality-less deck viable in the > current environment? > > Moto Gahrie Well for Unicorn and its gold structure..yes a personality-less honor running deck is very viable. Especially against control decks. There are cards where you can pay a certain amount of gold, to bow an opponent or stall an opponent. There are events that still have rather nasty effects as well. The ability to stuff your deck with regions can be abused and does not appear to have been playtested well with a personality-less deck in mind. The only thing decks like this have to worry about is a really good bltz deck and In time of war. Although, this is not what I was talking about. Unicorn has an ability to create viable decks with many unique personalities, stuffed with regions. Also, I would hope you still play with the kolats and know how to use Kolat assasins. WC _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From zfaulkes at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 1 23:29:13 2005 From: zfaulkes at sbcglobal.net (Zen Faulkes) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 22:29:13 -0600 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: L5r-ccg Digest, Vol 15, Issue 3 Message-ID: <42005719.1010308@sbcglobal.net> From: Mr Jacob Cassens Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: L5r-ccg Digest, Vol 15, Issue 3 >> Because I am interested in constantly improving how >> to distribute rulings, I would like to know specifically what >> reversals you are referring to. Because I count 5 and half (one's >> a partial reversal) in the Archive for *all* of 2004 and 2005 so >> far. > > Zen, it was nothing personal[.] I didn't take it as such. I genuinely am interested in what leads to certain perceptions about rules and rulings, because I want to improve things. Zen Faulkes! * Crab Clan Scholar _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From nolian_wolfrider at hotmail.com Tue Feb 1 23:27:28 2005 From: nolian_wolfrider at hotmail.com (Ben Henderson) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:27:28 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Khol Walls question In-Reply-To: <000501c508cc$f073d200$6600a8c0@RAVEN> Message-ID: Nothing happens to personalities or holdings revealed this way. The benefit is that they are now available for "purchase" during your dynasty phase since they are face up (or whatever reactions are in your hand and whatnot that are useful with face up personalities). >From: "G. Major" >Reply-To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com >To: >Subject: Re: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Khol Walls question >Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:14:29 -0600 > >So what happens to personalities revealed this way? > _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From saberinc at prodigy.net Tue Feb 1 23:52:01 2005 From: saberinc at prodigy.net (Eric Devlin) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:52:01 -0500 Subject: [L5R-CCG] The Shogun and The Order References: <42005719.1010308@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <038501c508e2$f27e9420$4fefe704@s> Mr. Wulf and Story Team Members: The members of The Order of the Black Chrysanthemum will be donating considerable material to the 'Box of Relief' that will be raising money for Tsunami relief at the NE Kotei on April 2nd. The 'Box of Relief' is the normal box of greed, where the proceeds will be donated to relief efforts. Anyone can pay $5.00 for three pulls from the box. The box will be chock full of prime cards, coupons for original art and the contents of a Dawn of the Empire set. The Order of the Black Chrysanthemum will be donating an extreme amount of material to the 'Box of Relief'. This donation will be made in the name of the Shogun, who certainly will need aid from anywhere he can get it. As the Kotei is a storyline event, we hope that we can utilize this opportunity to assist those in need while having an open ended impact on the storyline. I will be forwarding you a list of cards and items that have been donated, but we can start with 2 foil sets from diamond releases and a foil Ray of Hope. The players who are members of the Order truly hope that as much money as possible is raised for this worthy cause. As the T.O. for the NE Kotei I will be happy to take and forward the information from any other group that wishes to contribute to the 'Box of Greed', including any clan loyalists. Eric Devlin Order of the Black Chrysanthemum Team Whiplash Saberinc at prodigy.net www.koteis.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From mhooten at provide.net Wed Feb 2 00:28:16 2005 From: mhooten at provide.net (Michael) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 00:28:16 -0500 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Jama Suru Message-ID: <014801c508e8$00253340$bf4356d8@blackmonkey> With Jama Suru's spell effects considered being maho, does unbow effects that only target maho actions, i.e. Bloodspeaker Sensei or Asako Hirotsugu, work on any spell he casts when he bows as a cost of casting the spell whether it's maho or not originally? _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From shosurokenshin at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 00:28:54 2005 From: shosurokenshin at gmail.com (Shosuro Kenshin) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:28:54 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES] Shosuro Saemon and Tangen Sensei: infinite combo? Message-ID: <8cabb44605020121287b1309b5@mail.gmail.com> OK, a player mentioned this earlier this evening: During the declaration segment of an attack, someone uses the reaction on the underhand to prevent one of my samurai from assigning. The scorpion player uses tangen to redirect to saemon, and saemon uses his ability to pass out a follower token. However because tangen sensei's restriction is "once per battle" and the declaration degment isn't a battle, he then uses tangen's ability to redirect the already-redirected action back to saemon, and it triggers saemons ability. Repeat this process an infinite number of times. Now, I was under the impression that the same reaction couldn't be used on the same trigger more than once from the same card. However someone mentioned that each redirection created a new trigger of "After an action targets a card you control during an Attack Phase." Another thought mentioned is that "once per battle" means that it can only be used during battle. My questions for Marty are: Does this infinite combo work? Can tangen sensei be used while not in a battle, but still in the attack phase (eg declaration segment)? Tangen Sensei Scorpion Clan Sensei You may take only one Political action per turn. Reaction: After an action targets a card you control during an Attack Phase: Once per battle, redirect the action. Shosuro Saemon Scorpion Clan Samurai. Ninja Reaction: After another player's action targets Saemon: Target a Personality you control. Give him a 1F Ninja Follower token. Battle: Once per battle, target a Personality you control. Give him 1F Ninja Follower token. -- Rev. Dr. Shosuro Kenshin _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From cloak72 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 00:29:58 2005 From: cloak72 at yahoo.com (Robert Van Natter) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:29:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: Dishonored personlity involved in Honor gain... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050202052958.82497.qmail@web41824.mail.yahoo.com> Jeff, I would just like to say, in a world which seems increasingly less and less educated. You are my hero! :) --- Jeff Alexander wrote: > Yes. [ibid.] ===== Hiruma Ayslyn Crab Clan Professional Medler Scout Samurai Hero "We are all just Samurai brother, but when we stand together, we are the Crab" "Pain shared is pain divided; joy shared is joy multiplied" Everything I needed to know, I learned from drinking at Callahan's __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From daidojisotsanu at hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 01:48:40 2005 From: daidojisotsanu at hotmail.com (Daidoji Sotsanu) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 06:48:40 +0000 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES] one further rehonoring question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>Rulebook states, that "Dishonored personality is restored to Honorable >>status when it is involved in Honor gain" or "creates Honor for its >>conotroller". What it means 'involved' or 'creates' in above sense ? Is it >>equal to 'perfroms an action which results in a Honor gain', or something >>more ? > >Something more. He is involved if he is instrumental in the gain in any >way. He does not need to produce the gain directly. It does not need to >come from an action. He DOES need to be involved in creating a gain, not >modifying one. Playing Rhetoric to redirect an Honor gain from another >player to yourself will not restore the performing Courtier to Honor. Is my dishonored personality rehonored if they are involved in duel resolution in which they focused a "The Fortunes Smile"? Daidoji Sotsanu Crane Clan Samurai * Liason to the Hare Clan _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From lucradan at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 02:28:47 2005 From: lucradan at yahoo.com (Lucradan) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:28:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Savagery of the Moto Message-ID: <20050202072847.94737.qmail@web52010.mail.yahoo.com> I just came up on a possible misuse of this card. "Battle: Target a Region you control and a Region attached to the current Province. Move them to each others' Provinces until the battle ends." Now, by accumulated rulings: "You cannot pay costs using another player's cards. [JA, 15 December 2003]" And by rulebook, it would be safe to assume that the cost involved in taking the action would be to target 2 regions. Then, wouldn't it be an illegal action to switch a region owned and controlled by player A with one own and controlled by player B? I don't see it saying anywhere on the card that you can override the rulebook definition of costs, nor does it say you can use another player's region to pay the cost. Therefore, I don't see how it is a legal action. Please reply, Thank you -Eric __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From shosurokenshin at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 02:32:35 2005 From: shosurokenshin at gmail.com (Shosuro Kenshin) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:32:35 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Savagery of the Moto In-Reply-To: <20050202072847.94737.qmail@web52010.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050202072847.94737.qmail@web52010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8cabb446050201233278e0a819@mail.gmail.com> Targeting is not a cost. On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:28:47 -0800 (PST), Lucradan wrote: > I just came up on a possible misuse of this card. > > "Battle: Target a Region you control and a Region > attached to the current Province. Move them to each > others' Provinces until the battle ends." > > Now, by accumulated rulings: > > "You cannot pay costs using another player's cards. > [JA, 15 December 2003]" > > And by rulebook, it would be safe to assume that the > cost involved in taking the action would be to target > 2 regions. > > Then, wouldn't it be an illegal action to switch a > region owned and controlled by player A with one own > and controlled by player B? > > I don't see it saying anywhere on the card that you > can override the rulebook definition of costs, nor > does it say you can use another player's region to pay > the cost. Therefore, I don't see how it is a legal > action. > > Please reply, > > Thank you > > -Eric > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > -- Rev. Dr. Shosuro Kenshin _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From neil_g_phillips at yahoo.com.au Wed Feb 2 03:20:37 2005 From: neil_g_phillips at yahoo.com.au (NEil Phillips) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:20:37 +1100 (EST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Savagery of the Moto In-Reply-To: <20050202072847.94737.qmail@web52010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050202082037.39600.qmail@web52309.mail.yahoo.com> Umm, if what you said was true, you would never be able to target opponent's cards with actions.. I suggest you read up on the Web of Lies rulesheet with respect to the new card templating. It has changed since the Diamond rulebook. By the way, it's not as simple as "targeting is not a cost" - Clearly, targetting is a cost on a card such as Lessons of Pain. All costs are now seperated from effects by a colon (:). --- Lucradan wrote: > I just came up on a possible misuse of this card. > > "Battle: Target a Region you control and a Region > attached to the current Province. Move them to each > others' Provinces until the battle ends." > > Now, by accumulated rulings: > > "You cannot pay costs using another player's cards. > [JA, 15 December 2003]" > > And by rulebook, it would be safe to assume that the > cost involved in taking the action would be to > target > 2 regions. > > Then, wouldn't it be an illegal action to switch a > region owned and controlled by player A with one own > and controlled by player B? > > I don't see it saying anywhere on the card that you > can override the rulebook definition of costs, nor > does it say you can use another player's region to > pay > the cost. Therefore, I don't see how it is a legal > action. > > Please reply, > > Thank you > > -Eric > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn > more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > ===== NEil Phillips (neil_g_phillips at yahoo.com.au) "Reality be Damned, Innocent Lives are at Stake!" The opinions expressed above are not my own, but rather are those of Microsoft Corporation. _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From shosurokenshin at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 04:01:35 2005 From: shosurokenshin at gmail.com (Shosuro Kenshin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 01:01:35 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES] Shosuro Saemon and Tangen Sensei: infinite combo? In-Reply-To: References: <8cabb44605020121287b1309b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8cabb44605020201017be02881@mail.gmail.com> That's what I thought, however the argument was that each re-targeting of the action creates a new trigger to react to. For now, I'm ruling against it the next time it comes up in one of my tournements, but I'd still like an "official" ruling from Marty or Jeff. -- Rev. Dr. Shosuro Kenshin On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 23:50:00 -0800, Ben Henderson wrote: > You kinda answered your own question. You can only react to a trigger once > per card. Now I think your friend is right regarding Saemon being able to > do it as much as he wants because he's reacting to just having been > targetted. However, Tangen Sensei according to your combo is reacting to > the same trigger more than once, so that's where it breaks down. Tangen > Sensei may be able to redirect as much as it wants outside of an actual > battle, but it can still only do it once per trigger. > > >From: Shosuro Kenshin > >Reply-To: Shosuro Kenshin , L5r-ccg at alderac.com > >To: l5r-ccg at alderac.com > >Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES] Shosuro Saemon and Tangen Sensei: infinite > >combo? > >Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:28:54 -0800 > > > >OK, a player mentioned this earlier this evening: > >During the declaration segment of an attack, someone uses the reaction > >on the underhand to prevent one of my samurai from assigning. The > >scorpion player uses tangen to redirect to saemon, and saemon uses his > >ability to pass out a follower token. However because tangen sensei's > >restriction is "once per battle" and the declaration degment isn't a > >battle, he then uses tangen's ability to redirect the > >already-redirected action back to saemon, and it triggers saemons > >ability. Repeat this process an infinite number of times. > > > >Now, I was under the impression that the same reaction couldn't be > >used on the same trigger more than once from the same card. However > >someone mentioned that each redirection created a new trigger of > >"After an action targets a card you control during an Attack Phase." > >Another thought mentioned is that "once per battle" means that it can > >only be used during battle. > > > >My questions for Marty are: > >Does this infinite combo work? Can tangen sensei be used while not in > >a battle, but still in the attack phase (eg declaration segment)? > > > >Tangen Sensei > >Scorpion Clan Sensei You may take only one Political action per turn. > >Reaction: After an action targets a card you control during an Attack > >Phase: Once per battle, redirect the action. > > > >Shosuro Saemon > >Scorpion Clan Samurai. Ninja Reaction: After another player's action > >targets Saemon: Target a Personality you control. Give him a 1F Ninja > >Follower token. Battle: Once per battle, target a Personality you > >control. Give him 1F Ninja Follower token. > > > >-- > >Rev. Dr. Shosuro Kenshin > > > >_______________________________________________ > >L5r-ccg mailing list > >L5r-ccg at alderac.com > >http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From shosurokenshin at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 04:09:12 2005 From: shosurokenshin at gmail.com (Shosuro Kenshin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 01:09:12 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Savagery of the Moto In-Reply-To: <20050202082037.39600.qmail@web52309.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050202072847.94737.qmail@web52010.mail.yahoo.com> <20050202082037.39600.qmail@web52309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8cabb44605020201094422d521@mail.gmail.com> OK, admitidly I haven't read the WoL rulesheet, however... Lessons of Pain: "Open: Target an Oni Personality you control: Target a Personality...." As I see it, it says that you must be able to target an oni personality you control in order to produce the desired effects. I don't see that as a cost, rather a requirement of play "you must be able to target one of your oni to play this card." Then again I view cost (real-world useage) as well, costing something. As in, after I pay costs, I no longer have something I once did. But like I said, I haven't read the WoL rulesheet so no one pay attention to me on this matter. -- Rev. Dr. Shosuro Kenshin On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:20:37 +1100 (EST), NEil Phillips wrote: > Umm, if what you said was true, you would never be > able to target opponent's cards with actions.. > > I suggest you read up on the Web of Lies rulesheet > with respect to the new card templating. It has > changed since the Diamond rulebook. > > By the way, it's not as simple as "targeting is not a > cost" - Clearly, targetting is a cost on a card such > as Lessons of Pain. All costs are now seperated from > effects by a colon (:). > > --- Lucradan wrote: > > I just came up on a possible misuse of this card. > > > > "Battle: Target a Region you control and a Region > > attached to the current Province. Move them to each > > others' Provinces until the battle ends." > > > > Now, by accumulated rulings: > > > > "You cannot pay costs using another player's cards. > > [JA, 15 December 2003]" > > > > And by rulebook, it would be safe to assume that the > > cost involved in taking the action would be to > > target > > 2 regions. > > > > Then, wouldn't it be an illegal action to switch a > > region owned and controlled by player A with one own > > and controlled by player B? > > > > I don't see it saying anywhere on the card that you > > can override the rulebook definition of costs, nor > > does it say you can use another player's region to > > pay > > the cost. Therefore, I don't see how it is a legal > > action. > > > > Please reply, > > > > Thank you > > > > -Eric > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn > > more. > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > L5r-ccg mailing list > > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > > > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > > > ===== > NEil Phillips (neil_g_phillips at yahoo.com.au) > "Reality be Damned, Innocent Lives are at Stake!" > The opinions expressed above are not my own, > but rather are those of Microsoft Corporation. > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kaiufushio at yahoo.es Wed Feb 2 06:18:47 2005 From: kaiufushio at yahoo.es (Marco Antonio Calvente) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:18:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Some questions Message-ID: <20050202111847.37523.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> Hi I have some questions for Marty: 1) I have Sezaru and Isawa in play and a face-up spell in the top of my deck. can isawa cast that spell? 2) Spell that isawa cast from my hand can be recovered from the discard pile with the kami watch over me?(I posted this before, but was forwarded to jeff and still waiting response) 3)if P'an Ku copies the shugenja trait of one of my personalities, are considered Pan'ku printed abilities to be innate abilities? 4)if the ability of Troublesome Bureaucrat target a bowed personality, may the controller still choose to bow the personality instead of letting me gain the honor? Thanks in advance --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From dm4hire at hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 10:11:16 2005 From: dm4hire at hotmail.com (Joseph Provenzano) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 09:11:16 -0600 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Attn: Zen] Rulings Site Enhancement Message-ID: There's been a lot of talk on the TheCraneClan.com about rulings and it was pointed out that a lot of rulings are made in Forums but never get listed. Yet those decisions aren't getting reported. Has anyone mentioned adding an active forum to the Rulings site for this reason, so that rules could be discussed there? I've liked a lot of the ideas mentioned to enhance the website and redo it, but I think that would be a definte improvement for it after thinking about it. DM4Hire _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From zfaulkes at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 2 19:59:59 2005 From: zfaulkes at sbcglobal.net (Zen Faulkes) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 18:59:59 -0600 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: [Attn: Zen] Rulings Site Enhancement Message-ID: <4201778F.7040409@sbcglobal.net> Greetings, From: "Joseph Provenzano" Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Attn: Zen] Rulings Site Enhancement > There's been a lot of talk on the TheCraneClan.com about rulings and > it was pointed out that a lot of rulings are made in Forums but never > get listed. Yet those decisions aren't getting reported. Probably because most of those rulings don't need to be reported more widely. For instance, I check out the rules section on the Kobune Port, just generally watching and trying to help out. Stuff I say there typically doesn't get reported, because most of what I write is just straight applications of existing rules or pointing to rulings in the Archive. (Tangent: This comment is a nice example of something of something I've been noticing. Many players view rulings "democratically": they see each ruling as independent and specific and as something that should be archived and reported. For the most part, the Rules Junta sees the majority of rulings, because they are straight applications of existing rules, as being so minor that there is no need for them to be archived and reported. It's a perceptual problem, and I'm not sure how to resolve that.) If something comes up in a forum someplace that me or Marty or MaPhi or whoever can't answer, people find contentious, or whatever, those issues reliably end up getting kicked back to the Rules Junta and ultimately posted on this list or added to the Rules Archive. > Has anyone mentioned adding an active forum to the Rulings site for > this reason, so that rules could be discussed there? Nope, nobody has. The general idea of AEG run forums has been suggested by players from time to time, but there are apparently various reasons that brand management hasn't done so yet. So that's really a question / suggestion for Ray Lau, not me. Zen Faulkes! * Crab Clan Scholar * Unaligned Archivist _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From mattskordia at hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 21:32:58 2005 From: mattskordia at hotmail.com (Matt Skordia) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 02:32:58 +0000 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES]Togashi Kaiteru Message-ID: -- I'm just reposting this because I forgot to put the [RULES] tag in the subject line. Sorry, but I wanted to make sure that Marty saw it. Thanks. -- Togashi Kaiteru, from Dawn of the Empire has an ability that reads: "Reaction: After he enters a duel, bow a Monk Personality you control: If Kaiteru has no Weapons, give him +2F/+1C. If this is done during a battle, these bonuses last until the battle ends." There has been some conflict as to what this means in my local game group. I believe that it should be interpreted thus: I have Kaiteru in play and unbowed and he has no weapons. One of my Monks (Hoshi Hal) enters a duel. I use the reaction on Kaiteru. To pay the cost, I bow Hoshi Hal. Then Hoshi Hal gets +2F/+1C. Others believe that Hoshi Hal bows to pay the cost, but Togashi Kaiteru gets the +2F/+1C. Others believe that Kaiteru bows to pay the cost and the other Hoshi Hal gets the +2F/+1C. If you could clarify exactly how he works, that would be great. Thanks, Matt _________________________________________________________________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From iosef at gothic.net.au Thu Feb 3 01:50:45 2005 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (iosef at gothic.net.au) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 06:50:45 -0000 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES]Togashi Kaiteru In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050203065045.568C926F0D@visi.gothic.net.au> Matt Skordia said: > > Togashi Kaiteru, from Dawn of the Empire has an ability that reads: > > "Reaction: After he enters a duel, bow a Monk Personality you control: If > Kaiteru has no Weapons, give him +2F/+1C. If this is done during a battle, > these bonuses last until the battle ends." Kaiteru's reaction is after HE enters a duel, so the reaction isn't triggered if one of your other personalities is the one entering the duel. The trigger is Kaiterus duel. The cost is bowing one of your other monks. The effect is +2/+1 until end of battle/duel if not in battle for Kaiteru. Iestyn _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From togashi.shin at free.fr Thu Feb 3 02:28:36 2005 From: togashi.shin at free.fr (Togashi Imura) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:28:36 +0100 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: [Attn: Zen] Rulings Site Enhancement References: <4201778F.7040409@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <002101c509c1$f9c320e0$468ae78a@imuradono> > Nope, nobody has. The general idea of AEG run forums has been > suggested by players from time to time, but there are apparently various > reasons that brand management hasn't done so yet. So that's really a > question / suggestion for Ray Lau, not me. Know what ? it has just been done... Fun, isn't it ? Togashi Imura _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From jst1vaughn at mindspring.com Thu Feb 3 02:46:57 2005 From: jst1vaughn at mindspring.com (Vaughn Derderian) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 02:46:57 -0500 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Re: [Attn: Zen] Rulings Site Enhancement In-Reply-To: <4201778F.7040409@sbcglobal.net> References: <4201778F.7040409@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4201D6F1.5050604@mindspring.com> Zen Faulkes wrote: > (Tangent: This comment is a nice example of something of something > I've been noticing. Many players view rulings "democratically": they see > each ruling as independent and specific and as something that should be > archived and reported. For the most part, the Rules Junta sees the > majority of rulings, because they are straight applications of existing > rules, as being so minor that there is no need for them to be archived > and reported. It's a perceptual problem, and I'm not sure how to resolve > that.) If I might comment here, I think that it's not a problem so much as a difference in perception. The Rules Team has a grasp of the rules that, to be frank, is way beyond that of many players. The rules of the game started out complex and have only gotten more so over time, and the Rules Archive originally started out as a place to keep the answers to some of the more difficult questions about card interactions. Looking back at some of the earliest rulings in the archive, you can kinda see what I'm talking about: Entering Play * Any face-up Dynasty card can be purchased during your Dynasty Phase, including cards that weren't exposed until after your Events Phase. [DW, 25 October 1996] Deadly Ground * For an action to be legal, it must directly destroy Deadly Ground. Actions that destroy the terrain in a roundabout way (e.g., ending the battle without resolution) are not legal. [DW, 10 October 1996] Poisoned Weapon * Is not an action taken by the Personality in the duel. E.g., you cannot react with Honorable Seppuku. [DW, 24 September 1996] Ancient Spear of the Naga * Receives bonuses from effects that boost "Naga cards." [DW, 10 October 1996] Gust of Wind * The new target must be legal, as though the attack had come from your army. E.g., you can't redirect a normal attack to a Personality with Followers attached. [DW, 6 June 1996] *** I could go on, but my point is that these rulings are all ones that would, today, be considered straight applications of existing rules, and to people with a solid understanding of the rules, they are. However, to anyone trying to get such a grasp of the rules, these are the very types of questions that people go to the Archive looking for answers to. Over time, it seems like the Rules Archive has turned into a sort of expanded rulebook, and while a resource with that function is important, it's also important that people have a place where they can go to look for answers to difficult questions, even if those answers might be straightforward applications of existing rules. -- Vaughn * The Random Ninja _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From shosurokenshin at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 05:08:54 2005 From: shosurokenshin at gmail.com (Shosuro Kenshin) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 02:08:54 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES]Togashi Kaiteru In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cabb4460502030208465b86fc@mail.gmail.com> The 'He' is refering to Kaiteru. So his reaction only triggers when kaiteru enters a duel. The cost is bow a monk you control. You can bow Kaiteru or bow any other monk. As long as he has no weapons, then he gets +2F/+1C until the battle/duel ends. On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 02:32:58 +0000, Matt Skordia wrote: > -- I'm just reposting this because I forgot to put the [RULES] tag in the > subject line. Sorry, but I wanted to make sure that Marty saw it. Thanks. > -- > > Togashi Kaiteru, from Dawn of the Empire has an ability that reads: > > "Reaction: After he enters a duel, bow a Monk Personality you control: If > Kaiteru has no Weapons, give him +2F/+1C. If this is done during a battle, > these bonuses last until the battle ends." > > There has been some conflict as to what this means in my local game group. > I believe that it should be interpreted thus: > > I have Kaiteru in play and unbowed and he has no weapons. One of my Monks > (Hoshi Hal) enters a duel. I use the reaction on Kaiteru. To pay the cost, > I bow Hoshi Hal. Then Hoshi Hal gets +2F/+1C. > > Others believe that Hoshi Hal bows to pay the cost, but Togashi Kaiteru gets > the +2F/+1C. Others believe that Kaiteru bows to pay the cost and the other > Hoshi Hal gets the +2F/+1C. > > If you could clarify exactly how he works, that would be great. > > Thanks, > Matt > > _________________________________________________________________ > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > -- Rev. Dr. Shosuro Kenshin _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From shosurokenshin at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 05:08:54 2005 From: shosurokenshin at gmail.com (Shosuro Kenshin) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 02:08:54 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES]Togashi Kaiteru In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cabb4460502030208465b86fc@mail.gmail.com> The 'He' is refering to Kaiteru. So his reaction only triggers when kaiteru enters a duel. The cost is bow a monk you control. You can bow Kaiteru or bow any other monk. As long as he has no weapons, then he gets +2F/+1C until the battle/duel ends. On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 02:32:58 +0000, Matt Skordia wrote: > -- I'm just reposting this because I forgot to put the [RULES] tag in the > subject line. Sorry, but I wanted to make sure that Marty saw it. Thanks. > -- > > Togashi Kaiteru, from Dawn of the Empire has an ability that reads: > > "Reaction: After he enters a duel, bow a Monk Personality you control: If > Kaiteru has no Weapons, give him +2F/+1C. If this is done during a battle, > these bonuses last until the battle ends." > > There has been some conflict as to what this means in my local game group. > I believe that it should be interpreted thus: > > I have Kaiteru in play and unbowed and he has no weapons. One of my Monks > (Hoshi Hal) enters a duel. I use the reaction on Kaiteru. To pay the cost, > I bow Hoshi Hal. Then Hoshi Hal gets +2F/+1C. > > Others believe that Hoshi Hal bows to pay the cost, but Togashi Kaiteru gets > the +2F/+1C. Others believe that Kaiteru bows to pay the cost and the other > Hoshi Hal gets the +2F/+1C. > > If you could clarify exactly how he works, that would be great. > > Thanks, > Matt > > _________________________________________________________________ > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > _______________________________________________ > L5r-ccg mailing list > L5r-ccg at alderac.com > http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > -- Rev. Dr. Shosuro Kenshin _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kaioto at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 08:37:33 2005 From: kaioto at yahoo.com (Martin Lund) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 05:37:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Rules for 26 and 27 January 2005 [RULES] Message-ID: <20050203133733.38445.qmail@web54105.mail.yahoo.com> Your Rules for Wednesday, January 26 and Thursday, January 27, 2005 * * * * * * * * * * No new rulings for Wednesday. * * * * * * * * * * From: "Faber van Kraanen" Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:27 am Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RulesQ] Tani Hitokage > Can I make one of my bowed personalities do the Tani Hitokage duel? The Rule > book says that when playing a CARD that creates a challenge you need to > target an unbowed personality as challenger. But since strongholds aren't > cards... No. The Rulebook on page 54 says that bowed Personalities may not perform Actions that issue challenges. It does not matter whether the challenge is from a Stronghold or a card there, or in the definitions for "performing" on page 71. * * * * * * * * * * From: Jeff Alexander Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:37 pm Subject: Re: [L5R-CCG] Re: [Rules] Hatsu Suru > --- Jeff Alexander wrote: >> It's legal to play because the destruction still >> occurred, but it >> will do nothing except cause its player a 2-point >> Honor loss. >> Although Feign Death says nothing about the >> destroyed card needing to >> be in a discard pile, it is not legal to bring >> anything into the game >> in any state from outside the game without explicit >> instruction. >> Suitengu's Surge has such text. Feign Death does >> not. >> -- >> Jeff Alexander >> Lead Designer, L5R CCG >> Alderac Entertainment Group > >Does Feign Death target? Yes. * * * * * * * * * * From: Hiruma Teri Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:43 pm Subject: [L5R-CCG] Uso Sensei and Feign Death > Someone told me that when you do Uso Sensei with a duel that's > already lethal, it actually kills you twice, making stuff like > Feign Death useless. Is that right? If it is, I don't see the > logic behind it. There is no logic behind it from a Story perspective. >From a rules perspective, the logic is very simple: Uso Sensei adds, "Destroy the loser" to the other results of a duel, and the various results of losing the duel resolve sequentially, with the added effects tacked onto the end. So, if you play Steel on Steel, which already has an effect to destroy the loser, you'll add an additional effect on the end with Uso Sensei, causing two sequential effects that both destroy the loser. * * * * * * * * * * That should cover everything from Wednesday the 26th and Thursday the 27th. If I missed your question, please repost it. I'll get back to you at the first opportunity. Thank you, - Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From ryan at michonline.com Thu Feb 3 13:52:32 2005 From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:52:32 -0500 Subject: [L5R-useful] [L5R-CCG] Re: [Attn: Zen] Rulings Site Enhancement In-Reply-To: <4201778F.7040409@sbcglobal.net> References: <4201778F.7040409@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1107456752.9378.85.camel@ryan2.internal.autoweb.net> On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 18:59 -0600, Zen Faulkes wrote: > > Has anyone mentioned adding an active forum to the Rulings site for > > this reason, so that rules could be discussed there? > > Nope, nobody has. The general idea of AEG run forums has been > suggested by players from time to time, but there are apparently various > reasons that brand management hasn't done so yet. So that's really a > question / suggestion for Ray Lau, not me. The first question I would ask is, "What's wrong with the mailing list?" As far as I know, everyone who has access to a webforum can handle a mailing list[1], and the mailing lists generally provide *much* better archiving than forums. For example, the L5R CCG list archives are available here: http://alderac.com/pipermail/l5r-ccg_alderac.com/ This is linked to on the listinfo page that itself is in every email from this list: http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com (It's even the first link on that page!) If you want a more extensive archive of rules related postings, I have my L5R-Useful archives up, here: http://h4x0r5.com/pipermail/l5r-useful/ That list is reachable for subscription at: http://h4x0r5.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/l5r-useful/ If you want a more comprehensive archive of the main list (and all its varied incarnations), I keep that available on the same website at: http://h4x0r5.com/pipermail/l5rinfo/ There aren't many forums around, in my opinion, that have archives that run quite that extensively. So, I would ask, "What's wrong with the mailing list that a forum will help?" [1] - If you truly believe that you don't have a good way to access a mailing list, but consistently have web access, email me privately and I will use up a few of my Google Gmail invites to help you out. I don't personally use Gmail for mailing lists, but the threading support, and built-in search, should be enough to make using a list nearly as easy as using a forum, and still let AEG provide the massively better archiving. _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From arthur at halavais.net Thu Feb 3 16:44:59 2005 From: arthur at halavais.net (Arthur Halavais) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 21:44:59 +0000 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [Rules} Once per turn + Suitengu's Surge Message-ID: <20050203214459.5718.qmail@station171.com> Suitengu's Surge currently sets up a situation where reacts may be taken when it is no one's turn. Following the ruling on Tangen Sensei, does this mean that "Once per turn" reacts may be taken any number of times during that space, provided that all other conditions remain valid for the react? And I may have missed it, but was there ever an answer as to conflicting Surges personalities, and who is the active player for the purposes of determining the order of events? Yogo Aroso * Scorpion Clan Mad Shugenja * Really Unique _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From patryn150 at sunflower.com Thu Feb 3 18:20:27 2005 From: patryn150 at sunflower.com (Alex Hawman) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 17:20:27 -0600 Subject: [L5R-CCG]Tani Hitokage Duel In-Reply-To: <20050203133733.38445.qmail@web54105.mail.yahoo.com>; from kaioto@yahoo.com on Thu, 3 Feb 2005 05:37:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <200502032320.j13NKR4G008118@webmail.sunflower.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://h4x0r5.com/pipermail/l5rinfo/attachments/20050203/fc93f9ae/attachment.diff From mhooten at provide.net Thu Feb 3 18:28:12 2005 From: mhooten at provide.net (Michael) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:28:12 -0500 Subject: [L5R-CCG]Tani Hitokage Duel References: <200502032320.j13NKR4G008118@webmail.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <023201c50a48$07fa3b90$bf4356d8@blackmonkey> > Doesn't your below ruling go in direct contradiction with the ruling about Doji Saori targetting herself or another bowed Duelist? Basically stating that Saori can target a bowed duelist and they issue the challenge. I thought this came through the list a while back under one of Jeff's rulings. The ruling on that is that SAORI performs the action that creates the duel. The bowed duelist is then forced to duel despite being bowed, it's like challenging a bowed duelist, you can TARGET a bowed duelist, you just can't have a bowed duelist create an action unless a card specifically says so. _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From shosurokenshin at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 20:09:41 2005 From: shosurokenshin at gmail.com (Shosuro Kenshin) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:09:41 -0800 Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES] [MARTY] [Jeff] Tangen Sensei and Shosuro Saemon infinite combo Message-ID: <8cabb446050203170964c3c388@mail.gmail.com> OK, I didn't get a response from Marty, so I'm reposting the question. However I think I found a concrete rule that I can point to when I rule against this in a tournement: "Should you redirect an action, treat it as though it had been aimed at its new target all along." [Diamond Edition Rulebook, p74] The original question was: Can you keep redirecting an action that occurs during the declaraction segment (ie underhand or outmanuvered in court) to Shosuro Saemon so he can keep giving out infinite followers? The argument in favor was that each redirection creates a new trigger for tangen sensei "after one of your cards is targeted... and saemon "after being targeted..." That passage of the rulebook implies that once it's redirected, you treat it as though the new target was the original target. So after redirecting to saemon, you can't react to saemon being targeted using tangen sensei (though you can still use saemon's reaction, because it hasn't been used in response to this action). I think I can safely say "no" when the tangen player in the local group tries this again, but I would still like official word from Marty or Jeff, as it is a bit of grey area. "Also, each printed instance of a Reaction can be used only once per trigger." [DE rulebook, p75] -- Rev. Dr. Shosuro Kenshin _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kaishu320 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 4 04:16:13 2005 From: kaishu320 at hotmail.com (albert fernandez) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 09:16:13 +0000 Subject: [L5R-CCG] Current Official Rules Guys: AEG forum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, In L5R-CCG Marty Lund is the official voice, only surpased by Jeff alexander itself. Previously was Zen Faulkes, but he resigned. Zen proudly maintains updated the Accumulated Rulings (very good work, useful and clear) I remember that another man was committed to answer rules officially, Rob Bowman? I don't remember, but he never appeared on L5R-CCG. In the new AEG forum, who is the official voice? Marty, Zen Faulkes, both,... Thanks _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kaioto at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 14:58:01 2005 From: kaioto at yahoo.com (Martin Lund) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:58:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Rules for 28 January 2004 [RULES] Message-ID: <20050204195801.6369.qmail@web54101.mail.yahoo.com> Your Rules for Friday, January 28, 2004 * * * * * * * * * * From:? Jeff Alexander Date:? Fri?Jan?28,?2005? 12:39 pm Subject:? Re: [L5R-CCG] Uso Sensei and Feign Death >>Option 1: You die once, due to the duel's text. You >>play FD. You die again, due to Uso's text. End result: >>You are dead. > >This is right, the key is that Uso Sensei says that the duel kills >as an "additional" effect. So it kills once as a result of the >duel, then it kills again from Uso Sensei. Very, very close. It kills once as a result of the duel, then it kills again as another result of the duel. (Subtle point, but the added destruction is an effect of the duel and not an effect of Uso Sensei, by the Sensei's own text.) -- Jeff Alexander Lead Designer, L5R CCG Alderac Entertainment Group * * * * * * * * * * From:? Jeff Alexander Date:? Fri?Jan?28,?2005? 3:53 pm Subject:? Re: FW: [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Ogre Mage, human or nonhuman >Hello, > >The card Ogre Mage hasn't the Nonhuman trait. In Glossary I read "Many >traits implicitly make a card Nonhuman, including Creature, Naga, and Oni." >Nothing explicit about Ogre. > >Then, he is Human, unless otherwise is ruled. > >But I also read in the Rulebook: > >The family name comes first. Some Personalities do not belong to families, >including cards with single names that are not family names for any other >Personalities (like Omen) and cards with occupation, Faction or creature >words as their first word, like Ninja Spy or Ogre Bushi. (Exception: "Tsuno" > >is a family name) [DE Rulebook, Faction Alignments pag.65] > >In this paragraph the first word of Ogre Bushi is OGRE. It Ogre isn't an >occupation, neither Faction,... is a creature word. > >Then, Ogre Mage is Creature. All Creatures are Nonhuman. The Ogre Mage is >Nonhuman. > >I think this kind of analysis could be confused. Finally I am not sure if >Ogre Mage is Human or Nonhuman. > >Q: Ogre Mage is Human or Nonhuman? Human. >Could you reach a list of current creature words? "Creature word" is not a formal game term. The wording on page 65 does not create a rule that Ogres are Creatures or give a list of traits that automatically imply the Creature trait. >Also for traits that >implicitly make a card Nonhuman. >From the Glossary: Oni, Goblin, Naga, and Creature imply Nonhuman. *printed* Ratling, and printed or current Mujina, imply Creature (and thus also Nonhuman). There is also explicit reminder that Shadowlands, Spirit, and Undead do not imply Nonhuman, but truthfully, nothing implies the Nonhuman trait except what's listed above. These reminders are only there to address common misconceptions. -- Jeff Alexander Lead Designer, L5R CCG Alderac Entertainment Group * * * * * * * * * * From:? "Matt" Date:? Fri?Jan?28,?2005? 8:30 pm Subject:? [L5R-CCG] Dragon trait? > Does the dragon trait mean anything? such as non-human or creature i looked > in the rule book and didn't see anything but i could have missed it. There are no special rules pertaining to the "Dragon" trait - though there are some cards that specially work on Dragon cards like Storm of Isawa or Flight of the Dragons. * * * * * * * * * * That should cover everything from Friday the 28th. If I missed your question, please repost it with the flag [RULES] as part of your Clear and Distinct subject line. I'll get back to you at the first opportunity. Thank you, - Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kaioto at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 15:12:54 2005 From: kaioto at yahoo.com (Martin Lund) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:12:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Rules for 29 January 2005 [RULES] Message-ID: <20050204201254.34027.qmail@web54107.mail.yahoo.com> Your Rules for Saturday, January 29, 2005 * * * * * * * * * * From:? Jos? Miguel Diniz Martins Date:? Sat?Jan?29,?2005? 9:34 am Subject:? [L5R-CCG] strategic crossroads > can i play strategic crossroads in a battle where I > have no presence? No. Playing Strategic Crossroads creates - another - Action that players could use, but does not itself directly give you a unit at the Battle when you play the Terrain. * * * * * * * * * * From:? Lee T Boswell Date:? Sat?Jan?29,?2005? 10:42 am Subject:? [L5R-CCG] Seek the Path Q? [RULES] > For the purposes of Seek the Path, does the City of Blood's effect count > as searching your deck? > > Seek the Path: > Kiho Reaction: Target one of your unbowed shugenja or monks before a > player searches his or her deck fate for a card to force that player to > draw the top card of his or her fate deck instead. Draw a card. > > City of Blood: > Maho Limited: Bow a Bloodspeaker personality you control: Once per turn, > look at the top 4 cards of your fate deck. You may show one spell or > maho card, then put it in your hand. You may shuffle the deck. City of Blood does not search your deck. * * * * * * * * * * From:? "James Lyvers" Date:? Sat?Jan?29,?2005? 11:42 am Subject:? [L5R-CCG][Rules]Mirumoto Gukochi question... > This has sort of been bothering me for some time now. I was wondering, when > does Mirumotot Gukochi's reaction trigger. Is it after the duel is over, or > does it trigger at the same time as say the trait on Blade of Penance. Same trigger as Blade of Penance - after you determine that he's the winner by comparing stat-totals - though Gukochi says, "after" and Blade of Penance says, "when." > Or is the "while" a duration effect which means it continually adjusts the > units force based on Gukochi's current chi? Mainly we have been playing it > the other way, but I'm not so sure. The Chi value doesn't "lock in" when the Reaction triggers. Instead there is an on-going effect on Gukochi: "Gukochi adds his Chi to his unit?s total Force while he is unbowed." Changing his Chi during the battle will change his unit's total force. * * * * * * * * * * That should cover everything from Saturday the 29th. If I missed your question, please repost it with the flag [RULES] as part of your Clear and Distinct subject line. I'll get back to you at the first opportunity. Thank you, - Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From zfaulkes at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 4 15:20:22 2005 From: zfaulkes at sbcglobal.net (Zen Faulkes) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 15:20:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Current Official Rules Guys: AEG forum Message-ID: <20050204202022.74288.qmail@web81007.mail.yahoo.com> Greetings, From: "albert fernandez" Subject: [L5R-CCG] Current Official Rules Guys: AEG forum > In L5R-CCG Marty Lund is the official voice, only surpased by Jeff alexander > itself. Previously was Zen Faulkes, but he resigned. Not resigned, exactly; just moved to an "emergency back-up" position. I still have the power to make rulings, and am still active in the Rules Junta, I just didn't execise it much here recently since Marty was doing such a fine job with daily Q&A. > In the new AEG forum, who is the official voice? Marty, Zen Faulkes, > both,... And Jeff Alexander and MaPhi Messner and Paul Jacoby. They're tagging people with "Rules Official" next to the avatars. Oh, and Jeff put up a sticky in the forum explaining this. Zen Faulkes! * Crab Clan Scholar _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From redone33 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 4 15:36:34 2005 From: redone33 at hotmail.com (chad Ferrell) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 20:36:34 +0000 Subject: [L5R-CCG]Tani Hitokage Duel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I hate to admit this but I cant see much of a difference between Saori and Tani in terms of how they work. If you guys are ruling that Saori herself is performing the challenge and the duelist isnt then it a natural extension that the Stronghold is performing the action and not the Crab personality? Tani Hotikage Text Once per game, gain a Province to the right of your rightmost one after destroying a Province as the Attacker. Battle: Once per battle, one of your Crab Clan Personalities issues an unrefusable challenge to a duel of Force to an opposing Personality. Doji Saori Text Crane Clan Courtier. Samurai. Duelist Open: Bow Saori: Target a Duelist you control and a Personality another player controls. The Duelist issues the other target an unrefuseable challenge. The loser bows and may not straighten until his controller takes an Open action to pay 4 Gold. Im sorry but explain to me how Saori is performing the action when it claerly states the Duelist is the one issuing the challenge. I fully understand how she can target herself then bow and still perform the challenge, but to be able to target a bowed duelist doesnt seem right if your saying Tani cant to the same thing. Under new Templating, Tani would Read: Battle: Once per battle, Target one of your Crab Clan personalities in the current battle and an opposing personality another player controls. The Crab Clan personality issues the other target an unrefusable challenge to a duel of Force. Right or Wrong? So by extension Tani is the one performing the action, just like Saori. T9K Stronghold is also the one performing the action, based on the Saori ruling. T9K Text Limited: If you control a Personality, bow the Temple to target another player's Personality. The target may challenge any of your Personalities to a duel. If he does not, dishonor him. I am failing to see differences.....and before people start crying that Strongholds cannot perform an action, think long and hard about that one. Nowhere on her card does Saori say a bowed personality may issue this challenge. So the card is not allowing a rule to be broken. Thanks Chad Ferrell > >Message: 3 >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 17:20:27 -0600 >From: "Alex Hawman" >Subject: re: [L5R-CCG]Tani Hitokage Duel >To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com >Message-ID: <200502032320.j13NKR4G008118 at webmail.sunflower.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >Doesn't your below ruling go in direct contradiction with the ruling about >Doji Saori targetting herself or another bowed Duelist? Basically stating >that Saori can target a bowed duelist and they issue the challenge. I >thought this came through the list a while back under one of Jeff's >rulings. > >Thanks > >-Haplo > > >* * * * * * * * * * > > From: "Faber van Kraanen" > Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:27 am > Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RulesQ] Tani Hitokage > > > Can I make one of my bowed personalities do the Tani > Hitokage duel? The Rule > > book says that when playing a CARD that creates a > challenge you need to > > target an unbowed personality as challenger. But > since strongholds aren't > > cards... > > No. The Rulebook on page 54 says that bowed > Personalities may not perform Actions that issue > challenges. It does not matter whether the challenge > is from a Stronghold or a card there, or in the > definitions for "performing" on page 71. > > * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:28:12 -0500 >From: "Michael" >Subject: Re: [L5R-CCG]Tani Hitokage Duel >To: "Alex Hawman" , >Message-ID: <023201c50a48$07fa3b90$bf4356d8 at blackmonkey> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Doesn't your below ruling go in direct contradiction with the ruling >about >Doji Saori targetting herself or another bowed Duelist? Basically stating >that Saori can target a bowed duelist and they issue the challenge. I >thought this came through the list a while back under one of Jeff's >rulings. > >The ruling on that is that SAORI performs the action that creates the duel. >The bowed duelist is then forced to duel despite being bowed, it's like >challenging a bowed duelist, you can TARGET a bowed duelist, you just can't >have a bowed duelist create an action unless a card specifically says so. > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:09:41 -0800 >From: Shosuro Kenshin >Subject: [L5R-CCG] [RULES] [MARTY] [Jeff] Tangen Sensei and Shosuro > Saemon infinite combo >To: l5r-ccg at alderac.com >Message-ID: <8cabb446050203170964c3c388 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >OK, I didn't get a response from Marty, so I'm reposting the question. >However I think I found a concrete rule that I can point to when I >rule against this in a tournement: >"Should you redirect an action, treat it as though it had been aimed >at its new target all along." [Diamond Edition Rulebook, p74] > >The original question was: >Can you keep redirecting an action that occurs during the declaraction >segment (ie underhand or outmanuvered in court) to Shosuro Saemon so >he can keep giving out infinite followers? > >The argument in favor was that each redirection creates a new trigger >for tangen sensei "after one of your cards is targeted... and saemon >"after being targeted..." > >That passage of the rulebook implies that once it's redirected, you >treat it as though the new target was the original target. So after >redirecting to saemon, you can't react to saemon being targeted using >tangen sensei (though you can still use saemon's reaction, because it >hasn't been used in response to this action). I think I can safely say >"no" when the tangen player in the local group tries this again, but I >would still like official word from Marty or Jeff, as it is a bit of >grey area. > >"Also, each printed instance of a Reaction can be used only once per >trigger." [DE rulebook, p75] > >-- >Rev. Dr. Shosuro Kenshin > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 09:16:13 +0000 >From: "albert fernandez" >Subject: [L5R-CCG] Current Official Rules Guys: AEG forum >To: L5r-ccg at alderac.com >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed > >Hello, > >In L5R-CCG Marty Lund is the official voice, only surpased by Jeff >alexander >itself. Previously was Zen Faulkes, but he resigned. Zen proudly maintains >updated the Accumulated Rulings (very good work, useful and clear) > >I remember that another man was committed to answer rules officially, Rob >Bowman? I don't remember, but he never appeared on L5R-CCG. > >In the new AEG forum, who is the official voice? Marty, Zen Faulkes, >both,... > >Thanks > > > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >L5r-ccg mailing list >L5r-ccg at alderac.com >http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com > > >End of L5r-ccg Digest, Vol 15, Issue 8 >************************************** _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kaioto at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 15:48:12 2005 From: kaioto at yahoo.com (Martin Lund) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:48:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Rules for 30 January 2005 [RULES] Message-ID: <20050204204812.17642.qmail@web54108.mail.yahoo.com> Your Rules for Sunday, January 30, 2005 * * * * * * * * * * From:? "Doug Bass" Date:? Sun?Jan?30,?2005? 12:00 am Subject:? [L5R-CCG] Yoritomo House Guard > pg 92 of the rulebook says that the attacker (or defender) may declare a > naval invasion immediately "after the battle has been chosen for resolution". > since the house guard gives naval to personalities and followers "after the > last maneuvers segment", which occurs first? the "last maneuvers segment" or > the "choosing of the battle for resolution"? i think the last maneuvers > segment occurs first, so i could use the house guard to make my peeps and/or > followers naval (assuming each unit has at least one naval card), and then > declare a naval invasion. but i'm not sure. You've got it right. Finish the Maneuvers section. Respond to it. Then pick a Battle to start. * * * * * * * * * * From:? "Matt Skordia" Date:? Sun?Jan?30,?2005? 3:28 pm Subject:? [L5R-CCG] Togashi Kaiteru > Togashi Kaiteru, from Dawn of the Empire has an ability that reads: > > "Reaction: After he enters a duel, bow a Monk Personality you control: If > Kaiteru has no Weapons, give him +2F/+1C. If this is done during a battle, > these bonuses last until the battle ends." > > There has been some conflict as to what this means in my local game group. The meaning is this: "Reaction: After [Kaiteru] enters a duel, bow a Monk Personality you control: If Kaiteru has no Weapons, give [Kaiteru] +2F/+1C. If this is done during a battle, these bonuses last until the battle ends." Kaiteru permits you to bow Monks to increase Kaiteru's stats. * * * * * * * * * * From:? "Joseph Provenzano" Date:? Sun?Jan?30,?2005? 3:43 pm Subject:? [L5R-CCG] [Rule]Toshimoko no Shiryo > Toshimoko no Shiryo > Crane Clan Ancestor. Unique No Reactions can be made to a challenge, > refusal, or duel involving this Personality except Reactions that cancel the > action or negate the challenge or duel. > > Does this mean that no reactions period can be made when a duel or challenge > is issued except for actions which would either cancel or negate the issue? > So reactions that would be triggered by targettting a personality could not > be preformed since those are not reactions which cancel the duel/challenge? Not so. This is similar to the timing with Keen Eye. Targeting the Personality with the Action or Effect typically happens before the Challenge itself. > Also would it stop Accept with Honor since it is a reaction that also does > not stop the duel/challenge? And thus Misdirection could not be played > either as well as Turn of Fortune? It can stop Accept with Honor, but not Misdirection or Turn of Fortune, since they respond to the Action targeting, not the Challenge effect. * * * * * * * * * * From:? "Paul Moore" Date:? Sun?Jan?30,?2005? 5:43 pm Subject:? [L5R-CCG] Re: When to Straighten and When Not to Straighten, that is the Question. > I am playing Lion and using the Gosoku Sensei. > > I discard the favour to lock down a personality in the Limited phase. > > I attack with some tacticians and play Forward Sentries. > > I then target the personality I locked down to bring into the opposing > defending army. They move in, but the effect to Straighten them Fails. To override an effect that says, "May not straighten," you need an effect like Desperate Wager or Soul of the Clan that says, "even if they cannot straighten." * * * * * * * * * * From:? NEil Phillips Date:? Sun?Jan?30,?2005? 8:18 pm Subject:? [L5R-CCG] [Rules] Refilling empty provinces (obscure situation) > When you have an empty Dynasty deck, and four empty > provinces, then put a card on top of your Dyansty > deck. Do you choose which provine to refill, or is > your leftmost province refilled automatically? > > (Situation where it is relevant: City of Rememberance > Honour with Ryouko and Shrine of Humility) I haven't got a clue. I'll ask Jeff. * * * * * * * * * * That should cover everything from Sunday the 30th. If I missed your question, please repost it with the flag [RULES] as part of your Clear and Distinct subject line. I'll get back to you at the first opportunity. Thank you, - Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kaioto at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 16:23:43 2005 From: kaioto at yahoo.com (Martin Lund) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:23:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [L5R-CCG] Rules for 31 January 2005 [RULES] Message-ID: <20050204212343.57565.qmail@web54107.mail.yahoo.com> Your Rules for Monday, January 31, 2005 * * * * * * * * * * From:? "Quiet Corn" Date:? Mon?Jan?31,?2005? 12:18 am Subject:? [L5r-ccg] Uso Sensei and Feign death > That makes no sense. The guy can't die twice first of all. When guys die > they die. Unless their dying gets stopped by Golden Obi of the Sun Goddess, or Iron Pillar, or they get brough back to life with "Feign Death." > Also, how does the timing work here? I mean, Uso Sensei is a trait, not an > action, so wouldn't the two deaths happen at the same time, And therefore > allowing you to FD the second one? Get to know the Accumulated Rulings: "If an effect creates additional results for winning or losing a duel (e.g., Uso Sensei): - Multiple results apply in the order they're written. [JA, email, 9 December 2004] - If another result of winning or losing is added, it is appended to the ones that already exist (if any). [JA, email, 9 December 2004]" (Accumulated Rulings, "Duels") Appended means "added on to the end of the list." * * * * * * * * * * From:? Mark Klein Date:? Mon?Jan?31,?2005? 10:24 am Subject:? [L5R-CCG] Suitengu's Surge questions > I am basically confused about the whole "Before an action targets a unit" > and then what happens to the action after the targeting fails....... The targeting Does Not Fail. The card was Targeted, and that's what created the legal trigger to use Suitengu's Surge. "The "before an action targets" clause only puts the timing for this spell ahead of "when" and "after" actions target; the unit is still targeted. [ML, 14 January 2005]" (Accumulated Rulings, "Suitengu's Surge") > Occult Murder's: Surge should not even work with this card correct? Correct. Surge says, "Before an action targets a unit you control," and Occult Murder does not have any Actions on it. > Price of Power: This should work, but what happens? Say its my Price > of Power and I target my guy who has the surge on him, I react with > the surge. What happens now? do I continue the action based on the > guy I tried to target, or do I now have to choose another of my personalities? The action continues to play through, but any effects on the now illegal target will fail, as per this ruling: "If one or more of an action's targets become illegal between when they are chosen and when the action begins to resolve, that action will not affect those targets. This remains true even if they become illegal, then return to being legal. [JA, 15 June 2004; 22 June 2004]" (Accumulated Rulings, "Actions and abilities") > Kolat Assassin: my opponent try's to target one of my guys, I surge, > does my opponent now get a chance to target someone else? No. Same as the entry above. * * * * * * * * * * From:? Martin Lund Date:? Mon?Jan?31,?2005? 12:05 pm Subject:? Suitengu's Surge w/ Yodin Sensei (was Re: [L5R-CCG] Rules for 24 January 2005 [RULES]) First, as a note, if you want me to answer a question, don't post a reply with the same header as my daily digest. That's the whole "Clear and Distinct subject line" clause I put at the end of my posts. As for the question: --- Whitecat31 at a... wrote: > > Please answer this question. I have Yodin sensei. Or maybe it is a > multiplayer games and somebody has Yodin Sensei in the game. I > have the most personalities on the board. My opponent has > targetted three of my personalities with actions and I have used > Suitengu's Surge on all three in response. ( I have three > of the spells in play or I had a ring of air and two spells in play.) I > still have the most personalities on the board. Who gets to decide > which personality enters play due to surge. [MARTY] Active player chooses. The Active player is the player whose turn "before the beginning of" references on Suitengu's Surge. That player choose the order in which the units will attempt to return to play. > More importantly What happens to the other two > personalities that have been surged. Are > they ever allowed to reenter play? No. Surge tries to return them once. If that effect fails, they remain out of play and Surge never tries to bring them back again. - Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey * * * * * * * * * * From:? Hiruma Teri Date:? Mon?Jan?31,?2005? 1:18 pm Subject:? [L5R-CCG] [RULES] Shosuro Saemon and Ranged Attacks > If I target Shosuro Saemon with a Ranged Attack (at least Range > 2), what happens? Um ... traits and Reactions triggering off of Targeting are played? If what you are trying to ask here is, "What happens if I respond to Saemon being targeted by a Ranged Attack by giving him a follower, thereby making him an illegal target for the Ranged Attack," then I've got an answer for you. "If one or more of an action's targets become illegal between when they are chosen and when the action begins to resolve, that action will not affect those targets. This remains true even if they become illegal, then return to being legal. [JA, 15 June 2004; 22 June 2004]" (Accumulated Rulings, "Actions and abilities") The Action with the Ranged Attack happens, but it has no effect on Saemon. * * * * * * * * * * From:? Whitecat31 at a... Date:? Mon?Jan?31,?2005? 7:23 pm Subject:? [L5R-CCG] [Rules] question forward > Title? Glory of the Shogun > Rarity? Rare > Edition? Web of Lies > Text? For the rest of the game, attaching cards from player's hands > to their Personalities is an Open action. Additionally, each player > may draw a card once per turn after attaching from his hand a card > with a Gold cost greater than 4. > > OK my question is: does this count printed Gold cost or actual Gold > cost paid? It counts the current gold cost of the follower when played - not the printed cost. If you reduce the cost below 5, then it won't count. * * * * * * * * * * That should cover everything from Monday the 31th. If I missed your question, please repost it with the flag [RULES] as part of your Clear and Distinct subject line. I'll get back to you at the first opportunity. Thank you, - Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ L5r-ccg mailing list L5r-ccg at alderac.com http://alderac.com/mailman/listinfo/l5r-ccg_alderac.com From kschafer at nazarenefoundation.org Fri Feb 4 16:27:00 2005 From: kschafer at nazarenefoundation.org (Kevin Schafer) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 15:27:00 -0600 Subject: [L5R-CCG]Tani Hitokage Duel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050204212733.ADD0C4054C@omta18.mta.everyone.net> See Below Kevin Schafer > > I hate to admit this but I cant see much of a difference between Saori and > Tani in terms of how they work. If you guys are ruling that Saori herself > is performing the challenge and the duelist isnt then it a natural > extension > that the Stronghold is performing the action and not the Crab personality? No, because you must go down a checklist to see who is performing the action and a Stronghold and a Personality appear differently on that checklist. > > Tani Hotikage > Text Once per game, gain a Province to the right of your rightmost one > after > destroying a Province as the Attacker. Battle: Once per battle, one of > your > Crab Clan Personalities issues an unrefusable challenge to a duel of Force > to an opposing Personality. > > Doji Saori > Text Crane Clan Courtier. Samurai. Duelist Open: Bow Saori: Target a > Duelist > you control and a Personality another player controls. The Duelist issues > the other target an unrefuseable challenge. The loser bows and may not > straighten until his controller takes an Open action to pay 4 Gold. > > Im sorry but explain to me how Saori is performing the action when it > claerly states the Duelist is the one issuing the challenge. I fully > understand how she can target herself then bow and still perform the > challenge, but to be able to target a bowed duelist doesnt seem right if > your saying Tani cant to the same thing. >From DE Rulebook pp 71 "Some actions are performed by cards in play as well as by a player. To determine who performs an action, follow the *first* rule below that applies [emphasis mine]: "1. Actions on a Personality or Follower are performed by that card [Saori will always perform her action because it is printed on her]. "2. Actions on an Item, Spell, or Ancestor are performed by its Personality [Not relevant to this issue]. "3. Actions which involve one or more Personalities or Followers in their costs, such as requiring them to bow or become dishonored, or which require targeting your own Personalities or Followers who meet certain conditions, such as being a Shugenja or a Tactician or having a Chi above 2, are performed by those cards [This would prevent a bowed duelist from participating in a Saori duel except that we have to stop when we find the first one rule which applies so it is irrelevant to Saori. I believe that this rule also establishes who performs the Tani duel as it requires the targeting of one of your own Personalities who meet certain conditions, namely Crab Clan]. "4. Actions which issue a challenge from one of their own Personalities are performed by the challenger [If 3 doesn't cover Tani, then this certainly does. The Tani challenge is performed by the challenger. Again this would apply to the Saori duel except that we must stop at the first which applies]. "5. All other actions are performed only by their player." > > Under new Templating, Tani would Read: > > Battle: Once per battle, Target one of your Crab Clan personalities in the > current battle and an opposing personality another player controls. The > Crab Clan personality issues the other target an unrefusable challenge to > a > duel of Force. > > Right or Wrong? > So by extension Tani is the one performing the action, just like Saori. > T9K Stronghold is also the one performing the action, based on the Saori > ruling. > Stongholds cannot perform actions because they are not on the list of possibilities. DE RB pp 71 clearly shows that Personalities, Followers, and Players are the only entities that perform actions. > T9K > Text > Limited: If you control a Personality, bow the Temple to target another > player's Personality. The target may challenge any of your Personalities > to > a duel. If he does not, dishonor him. > > I am failing to see differences.....and before people start crying that > Strongholds cannot perform an action, think long and hard about that one. > Nowhere on her card does Saori say a bowed personality may issue this > challenge. So the card is not allowing a rule to be broken. > > Thanks > Chad Ferrell You are correct that Saori does not create an exception to the rule listed on DE RB pp 54 ("Also, a bowed Personality may not cast Spells, and may not *perform* actions that issue challenges [emphasis mine]."). But she does not have to create an exception for her action to allow a bowed duelist be the challenger. Saori will always be the Personality performing her action because rule 1 says that A